Speakers - weakest link?
Posted by: Top Cat on 05 January 2003
Hi folks.
Having spent a lot of time over the new year drinking, being merry and listening to lots of new music, I also managed to squeeze in some fine tuning of the system. Doing lots of nerdy things with Cara 2.1+ revealed some alternative positions for the speakers in my listening room, but something wasn't quite as I wanted it to be.
In a nutshell, listening to the system using headphones reveals a lot more musical textures and extremely fine detail than I'm hearing via my speakers. I prefer listening with speakers, but I was hearing a different level of articulation, especially with bass notes, and much more realism (strange in-ear headphone presentation aside) which makes me wonder if there's a level of detail that's being masked somehow.
I'm pretty satisfied with the overall performance that I'm getting in the room, but hearing just how much extra there was lurking in those grooves and pits made me wonder if my speakers (Neat Petite III/Gravitas) might not be fully up to the job of discriminating the finest nuances and articulations - painting, perhaps, in broader brush strokes than I'd like...
However, I still stand by my belief that the P/Gs are about as good as I've heard. Nevertheless, this extra music...
So, recalling a post I made a couple of years ago asking about headphones, I'm wondering if it's even possible to get the kind of ultra-articulation and completely limitless nuances that listening to a fine source with fine headphones provides, using loudspeakers of any type or price. Is it a doomed quest?
I don't really want to change my speakers, and things are otherwise pretty good - but the fact that my sources reveal much more than I'm hearing makes me wonder whether the rest of my system has outgrown the Neats...
FTR I'm using a cheapish headphone preamp with seperate PSU, Sennheiser HD600s on the tape out of the preamp.
ALternatively, do you think it's perhaps revealing of a weakness in the preamp (DNM 3B Primus) - which doesn't affect headphone listening due to the head amp doing its own preamplification - or perhaps even a failing in the power amp (PA3^S, which is reknowned as being a fine amp in the NAP500 class (albeit very different in its appearance and price!))?
Questions to ponder indeed? Anyone been at this crossroads before?
Thanks,
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Having spent a lot of time over the new year drinking, being merry and listening to lots of new music, I also managed to squeeze in some fine tuning of the system. Doing lots of nerdy things with Cara 2.1+ revealed some alternative positions for the speakers in my listening room, but something wasn't quite as I wanted it to be.
In a nutshell, listening to the system using headphones reveals a lot more musical textures and extremely fine detail than I'm hearing via my speakers. I prefer listening with speakers, but I was hearing a different level of articulation, especially with bass notes, and much more realism (strange in-ear headphone presentation aside) which makes me wonder if there's a level of detail that's being masked somehow.
I'm pretty satisfied with the overall performance that I'm getting in the room, but hearing just how much extra there was lurking in those grooves and pits made me wonder if my speakers (Neat Petite III/Gravitas) might not be fully up to the job of discriminating the finest nuances and articulations - painting, perhaps, in broader brush strokes than I'd like...
However, I still stand by my belief that the P/Gs are about as good as I've heard. Nevertheless, this extra music...
So, recalling a post I made a couple of years ago asking about headphones, I'm wondering if it's even possible to get the kind of ultra-articulation and completely limitless nuances that listening to a fine source with fine headphones provides, using loudspeakers of any type or price. Is it a doomed quest?
I don't really want to change my speakers, and things are otherwise pretty good - but the fact that my sources reveal much more than I'm hearing makes me wonder whether the rest of my system has outgrown the Neats...
FTR I'm using a cheapish headphone preamp with seperate PSU, Sennheiser HD600s on the tape out of the preamp.
ALternatively, do you think it's perhaps revealing of a weakness in the preamp (DNM 3B Primus) - which doesn't affect headphone listening due to the head amp doing its own preamplification - or perhaps even a failing in the power amp (PA3^S, which is reknowned as being a fine amp in the NAP500 class (albeit very different in its appearance and price!))?
Questions to ponder indeed? Anyone been at this crossroads before?
Thanks,
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Hi Marc,
Thanks for the advice. I heard ESL63s a while back, liked what I heard though I'm not entirely sure that they'd work so well with my system - my power amp, whilst more capable of driving silly loads than you'd expect from a 23w amp, suits speakers with at least 4ohms over the entire range - and although I don't know the Quads well, I suspect the impedance might be the tricky bit.
I've never heard DBLs - too pricy and (sorry folks) big'n'ugly
though I'm willing to believe that they might be more capable than the Neats I use right now. I think I want to clear something up, though, which is that the Neats aren't lacking detail as compared to most other speakers, it's just that they (or some other weak link in the amp/speaker chain) are clearly not relaying all of the musical detail and articulation that I hear with headphones, though I have to add that the speaker-style presentation is otherwise preferable.
The room I'm in is around 18'x15' with an 11' or 12' ceiling, and they Neats are firing along the longer dimension through necessity and WAF pressure. I'd guess that the speakers are currently 10' apart and 14' from the listening sofa, and slightly toed-in, but not by much - orthogonal axes from either speaker would meet some 18' or 20' away from the speaker, i.e. further than is possible in my room.
I really don't want to start thinking of new speakers, believe me! I do love the Petites but I suspect that there will always come a time when you surpass a bit of equipment's potential - maybe I've reached that point. On the other hand, perhaps I'm aiming too high - maybe there isn't a speaker which can overcome 14' of air and various room issues (however benign) which obviously don't affect the headphones. Moreover, the cans don't have a crossover, and maybe that's where the ultra-resolution is coming from... who knows...
Meanwhile, back in fantasy land, I might consider a change if I can find a reasonably sensibly priced full-range speaker which can offer all the virtues of the Neats with a bit more of this articulation). Other than electrostatics, which may or may not work well with the little plastic amps, the only candidates I have so far would be the Living Voice Avatar series (though they don't look too great and they've never bowled me over when I've heard them playing on the end of other kit at dealers' shops in the past). Horns would be another possibility, I guess, but I don't want anything too huge or pricy and though they're high sensitivity would suit the wee amps, I wonder if they might end up a bit on the bright side?
Ah, well...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Thanks for the advice. I heard ESL63s a while back, liked what I heard though I'm not entirely sure that they'd work so well with my system - my power amp, whilst more capable of driving silly loads than you'd expect from a 23w amp, suits speakers with at least 4ohms over the entire range - and although I don't know the Quads well, I suspect the impedance might be the tricky bit.
I've never heard DBLs - too pricy and (sorry folks) big'n'ugly
though I'm willing to believe that they might be more capable than the Neats I use right now. I think I want to clear something up, though, which is that the Neats aren't lacking detail as compared to most other speakers, it's just that they (or some other weak link in the amp/speaker chain) are clearly not relaying all of the musical detail and articulation that I hear with headphones, though I have to add that the speaker-style presentation is otherwise preferable.The room I'm in is around 18'x15' with an 11' or 12' ceiling, and they Neats are firing along the longer dimension through necessity and WAF pressure. I'd guess that the speakers are currently 10' apart and 14' from the listening sofa, and slightly toed-in, but not by much - orthogonal axes from either speaker would meet some 18' or 20' away from the speaker, i.e. further than is possible in my room.
I really don't want to start thinking of new speakers, believe me! I do love the Petites but I suspect that there will always come a time when you surpass a bit of equipment's potential - maybe I've reached that point. On the other hand, perhaps I'm aiming too high - maybe there isn't a speaker which can overcome 14' of air and various room issues (however benign) which obviously don't affect the headphones. Moreover, the cans don't have a crossover, and maybe that's where the ultra-resolution is coming from... who knows...
Meanwhile, back in fantasy land, I might consider a change if I can find a reasonably sensibly priced full-range speaker which can offer all the virtues of the Neats with a bit more of this articulation). Other than electrostatics, which may or may not work well with the little plastic amps, the only candidates I have so far would be the Living Voice Avatar series (though they don't look too great and they've never bowled me over when I've heard them playing on the end of other kit at dealers' shops in the past). Horns would be another possibility, I guess, but I don't want anything too huge or pricy and though they're high sensitivity would suit the wee amps, I wonder if they might end up a bit on the bright side?
Ah, well...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Hi JC,
I do feel a degree of loyalty to Neat as their products have been superb and their service beyond the call of duty is second to none, and would be keen to 'stay in the camp' but I'm also keen to do the right thing for my own musical priorities and sympathetically with the rest of my system. Given my power amp limitation (heck, it does so damned well for a 23w amp you forget that it's not a 200w monster!) certain speakers are not an option - e.g. big, difficult speakers, and anything with a wickedly low impedance (e.g. 1 ohms or below). This rules out a few speakers, both good and bad.
My worries about the bigger Neats is that they might just be a little too difficult for my plastic amp to drive. I can get extremely loud levels out of the Petite/Gravitas with the little amp - say, well into the 'louder than is good for us' levels - but it does run hot and I have occasionally wondered if anyone's ever melted that casework
However, loud is not the priority - what I'm really after is a completely articulate, clean and extended sound which has no hint of strain whatsoever. Given that I firmly believe that the bulk of PRaT is in the source and amps, I'm even willing to consider speakers not normally considered purely 'flat earth' - e.g. those Living Voices, say...
The Petite/Gravitas give me 95% of what I want in a perfectly competent, highly musical and entertaining way, which is fine for most people - in fact, probably beyond the wildest dreams of many - however, that last 5% evades it and hearing what's lurking in that last 5% has made me lust for it all the more... damn!
The scary bit is that that last 5% will probably be my ruin!!!
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
quote:Interesting question. I have, and I've also heard the big Ultimatum though I don't think it was setup correctly as the bass sounded off. The higher end Neats do interest me, but at the same time financial factors do come into it and those new Neats sure aren't cheap. I'm particularly interested in the smaller of the floorstanders and the standmount MFS, though I currently can neither afford nor justify the expense.
have you considered the Ultimatum range
I do feel a degree of loyalty to Neat as their products have been superb and their service beyond the call of duty is second to none, and would be keen to 'stay in the camp' but I'm also keen to do the right thing for my own musical priorities and sympathetically with the rest of my system. Given my power amp limitation (heck, it does so damned well for a 23w amp you forget that it's not a 200w monster!) certain speakers are not an option - e.g. big, difficult speakers, and anything with a wickedly low impedance (e.g. 1 ohms or below). This rules out a few speakers, both good and bad.
My worries about the bigger Neats is that they might just be a little too difficult for my plastic amp to drive. I can get extremely loud levels out of the Petite/Gravitas with the little amp - say, well into the 'louder than is good for us' levels - but it does run hot and I have occasionally wondered if anyone's ever melted that casework
However, loud is not the priority - what I'm really after is a completely articulate, clean and extended sound which has no hint of strain whatsoever. Given that I firmly believe that the bulk of PRaT is in the source and amps, I'm even willing to consider speakers not normally considered purely 'flat earth' - e.g. those Living Voices, say...
The Petite/Gravitas give me 95% of what I want in a perfectly competent, highly musical and entertaining way, which is fine for most people - in fact, probably beyond the wildest dreams of many - however, that last 5% evades it and hearing what's lurking in that last 5% has made me lust for it all the more... damn!
The scary bit is that that last 5% will probably be my ruin!!!
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."