Naim DAC - Is there ANY word?

quote:

I think then, you'll understand what the HDX "thinggy" does.

Gary1

Listening wouldn't tell me ANYTHING about what the HDX does. It would only let me know whether I liked the output sound. No more, no less.

Part of the problem with a lot of new inventions and the people who make/sell them is that they don't explain their PURPOSE, or their method of working. I presume they prefer to market a "black-art" [in a black box!]

Is the HDX designed to play vinyl records? or CDs, or ????

Also, I didn't refer to the HDX as a "thinggy". That description was reserved for the Larvry.

So, what does JN use to feed a Naim DAC?

Cheers

Don

Don,

Why all of the angst in your response? What the HDX does is:

1. Produce great music which is why I recommended you demoing in a properly set-up system

and

quote:

Originally posted by J.N.
But what would they recommend feeding it with?
John.

2. Takes all of the guess work out of the equation.


Gary

I have read that the HDX's sound quality is comparable to the mid price naim players, is there any truth in this?

Hi Gary1

You're seeing spooks where there aren't any. There was/is no angst.

But as yet, nobody has tried to answer either JN's original question, nor my follow-up to it.

To simply use the Forum Standard Response (and I have been here long enough to ignore it most of the time)"I recommend you get a proper demo at your dealer's" totally misses the point, and is an inadequate cop-out - we all do that anyway. I asked what something does, not what does it sounds like. And the context of the question was very clear. OK "does it play vinyl" was tongue in cheek.

So how about it. Is anybody here going to answer JN's question or my follow-up?

Or should I reder this Forum pointless (touch of angst creeping in here) and just pop along to my dealer and ask him, even though I don't really intend to buy one of these (yet)?

cheers

Don

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:

quote:

Originally posted by js:
Many of us that have heard the Lavry don't understand that decision when we think a CD5i or SN DAC sounds more right. A few ex Naim CDP owners repeating their preference is far from a consensus.

Not just "ex Naim CDP owners", and not just a few Forum folks either js; a fair few 555 owners too.

Jon's posting is spot on, and it has always seemed obvious to me, trusting as I do my own ears and those of the many others who've also heard the Lavry do good things, that the obvious answer is Jon's number 4).

Could be but Jon, myself, Kuma and DD listened to 4 different recent units with 4 or more different setups to get the same result and reported character. We also didn't limit our sources to a MAC TOS out so as to get a complete sense of the unit. If something has changed, they seem to all be similarly changed now. Didn't somebody else here report returning a recent unit? What's expected of these auditions? It's not brain surgery and a few of us used better input sources both in product and data available besides the usual suspects. We can only test what's actually available.
Again, this turns into a Lavry discussion. I think it's well understood that there is a vast difference of opinion on it. Can we leave it at that and not turn every one of these into a 'then why did so & so change for one?' We know, he liked it better. That doesn't make him wrong for his purposes or right for your's but every piece of kit has fans. It's no reason to over react. Listen to one at home and decide for yourself.

To get back on topic, if Naim did just do the SN DAC with a bit more resonance control, an improved PS and some input versatility like USB, firewire etc. for a $2K to $3K, it would be likely be very popular. The limitations on that DAC have little to do with the DAC portion itself and I, like others here, already feel it's better than any of the $1k DACs available though not as good as the best or an HDX for instance. Naim's done their USB homework on the HDX so it would be nice to include that facility so things like TCs wouldn't be needed to get proper results from a computer. It does have reclocking, narrow and wide input modes that it selects depending on need but being able to avoid reclocking in simple setups would be a positive in my book.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
John

Good question. I haven't fully grasped just what this new HDX does, nor the Lavry thinggy.

I presume that a Naim DAC would be fed from a Hard-disk or other memory system associated with a computer. This in turn would be fed either by a high-definition download from an authorised webb site or, a cd, played on a high quality cd player and "ripped" to the hard disk. The benefit of the cd/player/rip route would appear to be that it overcomes much of the dreaded "jitter" and "on-the-fly error reading" thus producing an end product that sounds better than the initial cd/cd player.

But I am probably wrong

Cheers

Don

That's pretty much it and I'm not convinced that any of these systems are yet better than than the best CDPs. There is a very relaxed and informative quality about the presentation that is appealing but jitter or not, I'd still take the top 2 Naim players over it with CDs. It doesn't lack dynamics but is somehow slightly less solid sounding than a CDS3 or CD555 with same PS. Some may actually prefer it but I don't with CDs though I'm warming up to it more every week and feel it's very close. Once high def and convenience is added to the equation, the tide turns to HDX's favor and it's standard CD performance with a 555PS is still plenty good enough to convince in even the best systems.

I personally don't feel the same about the Lavry peformance though I think it a good choice when compared to othe $1K DACs but it's lot in life is similar. Conveience is there with Itunes and an Iphone but I don't like the standard Mac output or Itunes(no asio) for best preformance and much of the convenience goes away if not in a Mac/Itunes setup. Same could be said of any computer/outboard DAC setup.
Hope that's what you were looking for.

quote:

Goldfinch, there are differences in sources on the Lavry but less so in the jitter reducing(reclocking) crystal mode. It will however sound best through narrow with a low jitter source. This is the reason that narrow mode is offered. It's better with good input. Sources like Mac tos out sounds better after reclocking in crystal mode. When I used coax out from a TC, narrow was clearly better and crystal deteriorated it's performance. The 2 were more similar in crystal mode with some of the TC's improvement being negated by reclocking. There's always differences but crystal mode diminishes them. Sometimes for the better and sometimes not so much.

It is difficult to know what exactly Lavry's narrow mode does but to my ears I prefer crystal mode. Maybe my M-audio SPDIF out is producing a lot of jitter. Anyway, manufacturer recommends crystal mode for better quality in stereo music. I hope my new Lynx AES16 (I am still looking for a good custom 110 ohm digital cable) will be good enough to use narrow mode and get better performance.

Respect to the "fith" possible factor -setup-, I found out that it is necessary to check polarity. For those of you using Flashback XLR to DIN cable, as David says Lavry's internal jumpers must be configured to PIN 2 hot, but in this case to get correct polarity you need to switch front panel selector to "inverted", otherwise you will be hearing music with the wrong polarity (depending on the kind of music, speakers and room this will be more or less noticeable).

quote:

Could be but Jon, myself, Kuma and DD listened to 4 different recent units with 4 or more different setups to get the same result and reported character. We also didn't limit our sources to a MAC TOS out so as to get a complete sense of the unit. If something has changed, they seem to all be similarly changed now. Didn't somebody else here report returning a recent unit? What's expected of these auditions? It's not brain surgery and a few of us used better input sources both in product and data available besides the usual suspects. We can only test what's actually available.
Again, this turns into a Lavry discussion. I think it's well understood that there is a vast difference of opinion on it. Can we leave it at that and not turn every one of these into a 'then why did so & so change for one?' We know, he liked it better. That doesn't make him wrong for his purposes or right for your's but every piece of kit has fans. It's no reason to over react. Listen to one at home and decide for yourself.

To get back on topic, if Naim did just do the SN DAC with a bit more resonance control, an improved PS and some input versatility like USB, firewire etc. for a $2K to $3K, it would be likely be very popular. The limitations on that DAC have little to do with the DAC portion itself and I, like others here, already feel it's better than any of the $1k DACs available though not as good as the best or an HDX for instance. Naim's done their USB homework on the HDX so it would be nice to include that facility so things like TCs wouldn't be needed to get proper results from a computer. It does have reclocking, narrow and wide input modes that it selects depending on need but being able to avoid reclocking in simple setups would be a positive in my book.

Dear js,

It's clear you're not familiar with the original auditioning sessions of the MAC/Lavry in this neck of the woods (I don't believe you were posting on the Forum then) but just to correct you I personally did indeed listen to one through my own system at home, and in someone's else's home in the company of an assortment of folks with a great interest in Hi-Fi, over the course of several hours using various CD and computer-based sources, and against Naim CDPs. Some sources sounded rather better than others of course. My trusty old Orelle CD transport, in its day very highly regarded, sounded quite frankly awful, yet an Oppo DVD player sounded considerably better. Another puzzle!

I'm at a loss to understand why you consider my desire to try and understand why our experience should be so different from yourselves an over-reaction? Because I respect the opinions of yourself and the others you mention I therefore cannot accept the variation is merely a matter of personal taste. Something else is at work here and it would be beneficial to mutually try and discover what this might be.

Tony M, is there a review of that days listening posted somewhere? I would be very interested to hear real users ( rather than dealers ) opinions, thanks H.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Tony M, is there a review of that days listening posted somewhere? I would be very interested to hear real users ( rather than dealers ) opinions, thanks H.

DHT, let's not open that kettle of fish. The threads I started which had the review of the Lavry at John's shop were eventually closed and deleted. Suffice it to say that Scott and I who were the impetus behind the demo were not impressed at all by the Lavry's performance. I do not in any way think that it was due to the unit despite protests to the above. John is just presenting his impressions which jive with ours and another non-professional who was there that day as well.

quote:

Originally posted by J.N.:
I'm sure a dedicated Naim DAC would sound fab.

But what would they recommend feeding it with?

John.

OK Don, I don't think Naim is going to recommend anything to "feed" the DAC with, that choice and how you rip your CD's, store them, interconnect, etc.. will be up to each individual. IMO, this creates a significant or shall I say likely chance that there will be no consisentcy in the performance of a Naim DAC, since each individual will need to "figure it out for themselves." There are too many variable that go into the end result to expect Naim to provide recs for each and every aspect of the process. The only thing I think you will get from Naim is potentially what external NAS they rec for storage, since I believe they are working with a few different NAS devices to see which gets the best results for playback, but this is in context of the need to expand the HDX to allow for direct ripping to an external NAS. Makes sense that Naim would want to ensure that those like me who have purchased the HDX are able to obtain excellent results for playback with the HDX once you need to move beyond the internal HDX HDD due to requirements of larger storage for their CD collection of downloading/uploading 24 bit Hi-res files.

While Linn recs EAC for use with their DS devices I don't expect Naim , as most companies do not, to rec a ripping software esp, since they have their own contained within the HDX.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
I do not in any way think that it was due to the unit despite protests to the above.

Not a protest, merely a possible explanation. Please share with us why you know the Lavry you heard was not a below-par unit?

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:

quote:

Could be but Jon, myself, Kuma and DD listened to 4 different recent units with 4 or more different setups to get the same result and reported character. We also didn't limit our sources to a MAC TOS out so as to get a complete sense of the unit. If something has changed, they seem to all be similarly changed now. Didn't somebody else here report returning a recent unit? What's expected of these auditions? It's not brain surgery and a few of us used better input sources both in product and data available besides the usual suspects. We can only test what's actually available.
Again, this turns into a Lavry discussion. I think it's well understood that there is a vast difference of opinion on it. Can we leave it at that and not turn every one of these into a 'then why did so & so change for one?' We know, he liked it better. That doesn't make him wrong for his purposes or right for your's but every piece of kit has fans. It's no reason to over react. Listen to one at home and decide for yourself.

Dear js,

It's clear you're not familiar with the original auditioning sessions of the MAC/Lavry in this neck of the woods (I don't believe you were posting on the Forum then) but just to correct you I personally did indeed listen to one through my own system at home, and in someone's else's home in the company of an assortment of folks with a great interest in Hi-Fi, over the course of several hours using various CD and computer-based sources ,and against Naim CDPs. Some sources sounded rather better than others of course. My trusty old Orelle CD transport, in it's day very highly regarded, sounded quite farnkly awful, yet an Oppo DVD player sounded considerably better. Another puzzle!

I'm at a loss to understand why you consider my desire to try and understand why our experience should be so different from yourselves an over-reaction? because I respect the opinions of yourself and the others you mention I therefore cannot accept the variation is merely a matter of personal taste. Something else is at work here and it would be beneficial to mutually try and discover what this might be.

Frankly, because it can't be answered here and I don't understand the hub bub. I'm also really not concerned with anything but what is available to consumers at this time. Maybe the units have changed or maybe one of us got it wrong. We won't discover that discussing it and I've offered all I can about interfaces, media players etc as have pcstockton and ferenc. We all suggested doing more at the PC/MAC end to even get a good feel for a DAC. Kuma used CD transports and got the same results as myself, Dave and the last group listen.

It's becoming a redundant discussion with no new info other than I like it more or not as much and as usual a Naim digital thread is becoming another Lavry thread. I'd love to have what somebody feels is a good setup come into the shop and show me with any system/configuration he prefers. I'm also perfectly willing to be shown the error of my ways as long as the inverse is also true. This now brings up unit variability as the latest direction these discussions have turned. How can we even discuss the goodness of any unit in that environment let alone our differences of response.

All that said, if somebody asked me which $1k Dac to consider, the DA10 would be recommended so we're not as far off as it may appear. I just prefer any Naim CDP for CD sound over the recommended Mac/Lavry setup. Viva la Difference!

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Tony M, is there a review of that days listening posted somewhere? I would be very interested to hear real users ( rather than dealers ) opinions, thanks H.

No offense taken though I think your reference is understood and didn't need mention. There's a reason that I'm registered as a trade member and that you know I'm a dealer. It's very transparent. I still recommend LP12s while not a Linn dealer as an example of what I feel important. Lifes too short to bull and my posts wont increase my sales. You can decide for yourself as you don't know me personally. I'm on board with Kuma's review and the last group listening session.

Personally I've no problem at all with you being a trade member js and would not think to question your integrity; indeed the trade members on the Forum are a source of interesting information and I value all your opinions, even though they may differ from my own. Let's face it, we all put our own spin to a greater or lesser degree on what we post.

I'm also "Fully on board" with Kuma & Co's experiences with the Lavry, which are equally as valid as my own.

Back to DACs in general, and what you feed them with. Is there any great benefit to 24/192 material over 24/96?

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Is there any great benefit to 24/192 material over 24/96?

No -- few 192k dacs work properly. Stick to 88k or 96k

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:

OK Don, I don't think Naim is going to recommend anything to "feed" the DAC with, that choice and how you rip your CD's, store them, interconnect, etc.. will be up to each individual. IMO, this creates a significant or shall I say likely chance that there will be no consisentcy in the performance of a Naim DAC, since each individual will need to "figure it out for themselves."

Just like every single turntable used with EVERY single Naim phono pre.

Sounds fine to me.

quote:

No -- few 192k dacs work properly. Stick to 88k or 96k

Thats an odd thing to say, which dacs capable of 193 have you heard that didn't work properly?
Is the HDX only 96 perchance?

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
Back to DACs in general, and what you feed them with. Is there any great benefit to 24/192 material over 24/96?

I have been testing different formats I agree with others who report greater benefits from 16 to 24 bits than from greater sampling freq.
As I posted some days ago, it seems greater sampling frequency implies higher frequency response (according to Nyquist theory), being standard 44,1 equal to 22 khz, which is actually above human perception. So the benefits of higher sampling frequencies are difficult to explain, but many still hear a difference, possibly because:
- Recording at high sampling frequency let more margin to loose quality at different steps of music production.
- Higher and (inaudible) frequencies do influence how we perceive the audible frequency range. This could be the same reason why good analog sources (which are able to give even 40 khz frequencies)have something special, an extra factor. SACD fans also work with this idea to justify benefits from frequency range beyond human treshold.

96 khz equals to 48 khz, which is enough to match the best analogue source. If this is true, 192 khz seems completely unnecessary. I think audiophiles are a few steps behind than musicians in this topic. I don't think 192 khz is not widely implemented at recording studios because of state of technology but because 96 khz and even lower freq are good enough.

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:

For a Mac user, the Apogee Duet is a far better choice, because it is properly integrated into the OS too, and makes a fine fine fine playback unit for the money (under 500 dollars if i remember right).

Forgive me if I'm being thick (and I obviously am) but I thought I'd break silence to ask how this connects up to the pre-amp (a 202 in my case, but not sure if this would make a difference)? Do you have to use the headphone socket out to a DIN - if so, is this not a sub-optimal way of making the connection?

Thanks in advance for the clarification

Ben

The HDX will play 192/24 without a problem.

I probably should have said "avoid 192k adcs and dacs"

:-)

ie doing 24-bit at 192k is *hard work*. Dropping to 88 or 96 helps a lot.

tonym.

Does you Lavry sound like your CD555?

Or closer to a CDS3?

Hi Kuma. I haven't got a lavry yet, just my experience listening to someone else's. I've attempted to listen to other non-CD digital sources in the past and with the exception of Jon's 24/96 recordings I've not liked what I've heard.

The MacLavry as I experienced through my system sounded very good indeed and stood up to my 555 remarkably well. Sorry, haven't heard it in comparison to a CDS3.

quote:

Originally posted by tonym:
The MacLavry as I experienced through my system sounded very good indeed and stood up to my 555 remarkably well.

wow.

I must have a very good sample of CD555/555PS.