Dipping "toe" into murky DAC waters

>> 2. Do longer cables degrade the sound? The computer and hifi are in separate rooms and ideally I would put the DAC near the hifi so I could also feed TV and maybe other sources through it. I have seen 5m cables advertised but do they maintain the quality? <<

I think the general guideline is that it should be LONGER than 1.5m. Steve Nugent from Empirical Audio had a piece in Positive Feedback explaining why, (which I do not pretend to understand.)

>> 3. What is the best way to connect the DAC to the amp - 2 RCA to 2 RCA or 2 RCA to Din or is there an alternative such as Balanced Audio Outputs? <<

I use a RCA-DIN Hi-Line with good results.

I don’t think you can do balanced as the Naim amps are single ended. But when I had my Lavry I used a Flashback XLR to DIN cable, but of course it was running single ended, not balanced.

>> 3. I also have bought a secondhand Squeezebox and wondered about feeding that through the DAC to get internet radio etc - what is the best type of cable to link the Squeezebox to the DAC?

You have 2 choices, TOSLINK fiber or Coax/RCA. Most people think coaxial is better than TOSLINK, and I seem to recall Squeezebox master Sean Adams thought the same as well. But it would not hurt to experiment.

If you opt for TOSLINK, one TOSLINK cable I can recommend is the Van den Hul OPTOCOUPLER cable. It is reasonably priced and sounds very good for its price.

Hi Willie,

I have the exact same system as you. (SB3/DACmagic, Nait-5i, n-Sats)

I have an Atlas Element digital coax cable ( €40,- ) between my Squeezebox and the DACmagic.
I've never used a RCA-RCA between any source and my Nait-5i. Chord makes great RCA-DIN cables for Naim gear.
I have a Chord Cobra 2.

Together this combo sounds clear, open, highly detailed, with a tight bottom-end and voices sounding natural.
All in all, a very enjoyable system for an affordable price.

regards,
Alco

Hi Alco

Thanks for the info - very helpful and look forward to hearing what the sound is like

Cheers

Willie

Thanks Avole - does the type/brand of optical cable matter or are they all pretty much the same and also what is an AE?

Cheers

Willie

AE = airport express, an Apple device capable of streaming itunes wirelessly

Thanks guys for help so far - further contributions appreciated although I am away for the weekend walking in Yorkshire Dales so likely to be off air until late Sunday

Willie

quote:

If you opt for TOSLINK, one TOSLINK cable I can recommend is the Van den Hul OPTOCOUPLER cable. It is reasonably priced and sounds very good for its price.

Exactly. The sound through VDH OPTOCOUPLER is so clear that possibly more expensive tosslink will not further improve it when feeding the re-clocking DAC.

Try to avoid cheap tosslink.

I got the DAC to amp sorted with a spare Chord Cobra 2 RCA to Din I already had and I bought a Chord Codac co-axial to link the Squeezebox to the DAC.

However, I am still having difficulties getting the right iMAc to DAC cable. The iMac optical output is via headphone socket which Apple say is also an S/PDIF stereo 3.5 mini-phono jack - is this the same as mini-Toslink?. The DacMagic has 2 alternative digitsl inputs - either S/PDIF co-axial or Toslink. So my question is do I look for an S/PDIF cable or can I use mini Toslink-Toslink? All help very much appreciated.

Willie

You need a Mini Toslink to Toslink. Chord do one which will do the job nicely.

James

James - thanks for the help - does the mini Toslink fit straight into the headphone socket on the iMac?

Willie

Yep

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
You need a Mini Toslink to Toslink. Chord do one which will do the job nicely.

As do Wireworld now...

Steve.

Thanks all - Chord Toslink - Mini-Toslink ordered so should be up and running as soon as it comes

Willie

quote:

Originally posted by Willie B:
Thanks all - Chord Toslink - Mini-Toslink ordered so should be up and running as soon as it comes

Willie

It would be interesting if you let us know how it sounds.

quote:

Originally posted by james n:
You need a Mini Toslink to Toslink. Chord do one which will do the job nicely.

James

VDH Optocoupler also has a TOS to mini TOS

Well my toe is well and truly dipped into murky waters and to be honest I'm a bit underwhelmed and a tad disappointed so far.

To recap I bought a Cambridge DacMagic and connected it to a Nait 5i by Chord Cobra 2 RCA to Din (to Tuner socket as CD & TV are connected into CD & AV sockets). I then compared 2 setups: first streaming wirelessly from iMac to Squeezebox which is connected by a Chord Codac co-axial S/PDIF cable to the DacMagic; secondly moving iMac near DacMagic and connecting it directly to it, without the Squeezebox, by means of a 10 metre Chord Optichord Toslink to mini-Toslink optical cable that fits the mini-jack headphone out/optical digital out port on my iMac.

My iTunes library was ripped Apple Lossless and is kept on a WD 1T external hard drive linked to my iMac by Firewire 800.

I am unable to directly compare the two set ups as I need the iMac connected to my router for the Squeezebox but then have to break the connection and move it to nearer the DAC to link into it for the second set up. However in both cases I have compared the sound to a CDX2 playing the same tracks.

I don't have the most critical hearing but in both setups the CDX2 aounds a lot better than the full digital approach - the 2 digital versions both sound somewhat veiled with less clarity and a muffling of drums, cymbals and less separation between the instruments. Not a bad sound but not as good as I expected.

From reading a lot of other comments I was expecting better sound than this and would appreciate any suggestions for improvements - do the cables and DAC need more time to burn in? Is the iMac optical output compromised in some way? Are the apple lossless rips inferior to other rips? I suspect the Squeezebox digital output is not of the highest quality but this doesn't explain why the sound with the iMac directly feeding the DAC is no better.

I was hoping that this first foray would give me encouragement to further develop a digital setup - perhaps with a MacMini feeding a Naim DAC but now I am not sure.

Willie

quote:

Originally posted by Willie B:
Well my toe is well and truly dipped into murky waters and to be honest I'm a bit underwhelmed and a tad disappointed so far.
[...]
I was hoping that this first foray would give me encouragement to further develop a digital setup - perhaps with a MacMini feeding a Naim DAC but now I am not sure.

Willie

Willie ... I think it's a bit unfair to expect a £225 DACMagic to sound like a £3000+ CD player - people say it punches above it's weight but not THAT far above it's weight. I would say (from not much testing of it) that it would be comparable to around £500 Cambridge Audio 750CD player ... but that's not a patch on a CDX2 ... you could also try USB connection to the DACMagic though generally the reports are this is not as good as via optical. If you want to compare the Squeezebox to the iMac, why not get a longer network cable back to your router ... should only cost a few quid.

I'm sure that a Naim DAC will get you closer if not exceeding the CDX2 ... even fed with Optical from your iMac.

Eloise

PS. 10m TOSLink is at the limits of the specifications but in most cases shouldn't be an issue.

Hi Eloise
Thanks for your comments and I expect you are right about the DacMagic but I also wonder if i can improve some of the other links.

Willie

re Toslink vs coax, particularly in the context of a squeezebox, here are Sean Adams (the designer of the Squeezebox) own words from the logitech forum:

"TOSLINK (as observed at a receiving device) is always worse, like +100 to 200 ps regardless of how good the source is. Coax is the only way to go if you care about jitter, although optical has the advantage of being inherently isolated which could help in a system having EMI or ground loop problems. That's why you get both... Vive la différence. "

(I haven't posted the link directly, as these seem to get deleted).

(And it's worth noting that if you are Sean Adams you are capable of designing a DAC that can take data from a computer without using S/PDIF, TOSLINK or USB )

Willie - check you have iTunes set up properly - all sound effects off, voume at 100%, in audiomidi (applications / utilities folder) set the output to 24bit rather than 16.

I've never heard the Dac magic but it seems well regarded. You could always try borrowing a Lavry DA10 which works very well with Naim kit. I'd also lose the 10m optical cable. If i had to use optical then i'd not go longer than 1m.

One more thing - have you played with the filter settings on the Dac ?

James

James
Thanks for your comments. I have now turned off Sound Enhancer (it was set to the mid-point) and turned up volume to full. I checked the output in audiomidi and it is already set to 24 bit. Do you think I should have gone for the AIFF or WAV encoder rather than Apple Lossless - I have plenty of storage space and they both offer more customised settings. I have played with the filter settings but they don't seem to make a big difference.

Willie

Apple lossless is fine so don't worry about that. Does it sound better now you've changed those settings ?

James

As James says, you must ensure that iTunes' enhancer is off; sound quality is effected even in its flat setting.

Output from your sb3/dac should not be effected by the above. It should sound close to your cdx2. Have you tried your Cobra interconnect on your cdx2? Does the cable make any difference to your cdx2 sound?

James, Keith
Thank you both for your advice - collectively you have helped me improve the sound. Firstly turning off the sound enhancer and setting volume to 100% made a noticeable difference. I then dug out a spare Cobra interconnect and used it on the CDX2 in place of the existing Chord Anthem and this brought the sound of the CDX2 much closer to the Squeezebox DacMagic. I think that the Anthem is a more revealing and perhaps brighter cable than the Cobra and this was affecting my judgement.

I am also using i-peng on an iPod Touch and it is a lot more user friendly than the Squeezebox remote.

I now look forward to hearing reviews of the Naim DAC as that would be my goal with iTunes on a NAS or direct from a MacMini - any comments on which version to go for - basic model at £500 or the server version at £800 - a lot more money but perhaps better in the long term as a media hub?

Willie

quote:

Originally posted by Willie B:
I now look forward to hearing reviews of the Naim DAC as that would be my goal with iTunes on a NAS or direct from a MacMini - any comments on which version to go for - basic model at £500 or the server version at £800 - a lot more money but perhaps better in the long term as a media hub?

Willie

If you mean which version of the MacMini, I would stick with the standard version rather than the server. Add an external HDD if you need additional space. With the server version you're going to be paying a lot for the benefits of the Snow Leopard Server software which is unnecessary. Also you'll need to add an external CD drive if you wish to rip direct to it.

Eloise