Handel Organ Concertos

George, I have this Handel Organ CD sitting in my collection neglected and unplayed. I bought it a few years ago now and somehow have managed to ignore it but will now listen based on your enthusiastic review of it.

As for Bach Cantatas, I have bought a couple of recent releases by Gardiner that have been very well received and to my ear sound fine. I will probably continue to slowly buy some more of these as and when I am in that mood.

Dear George,

in my vinyl collection are three LPs from Karl Richter and his Chamber Orchestra containing the Händel Organ Concertos No. 1 - 12 ( Decca SXL 2115, 2187 and 2201 ). I like these recordings very much but I don`t know, how good they are in comparison with other recordings. Maybe they are available on CD.

No recommendations for Bach´s Cantatas, there are too many .

Best wishes

Manfred

These were amongst the first CDs I bought on what turned out to be a fairly lengthy journey into Handel (probably my favourite classical composer after RVW). They are indeed jewels.

Pinnock's Concerti Grossi are superb too.

I have just got to an old friend, Opus 7, No 4, which is a remarkable piece! A good place to start maybe, or another - Opus 4, No 6, which is here played in the original version for harp [Ursula Holiger as soloist]. Both are full of delight and may make fine starting points.

Another favourite of mine is not really part of the Opus 7 set. The Concerto in A [Disc 3, track 12 onward] which is catalogued as HWV 296. This a rescoring of the Concerto Grosso Opus 6, No 11 with extra "ad-libitum" Organ solo sections. Life enhancing music if ever!

Great music that should be better known.

ATB from George

Hi George, I've barely scratched the surface of Bach's cantatas, but I like this 2CD set from Philippe Herreweghe very much:

Bach Cantatas

It's a while since I played it, but I remember the performances being heartfelt, while conveying the devotional aspect of this music convincingly. The Masaaki Suzuki recordings on BIS are highly rated, as are the Gardiners (though I am somewhat sceptical of the latter, as I don't really get on with his Passions). I find the prospect of exploring this body of work utterly daunting, to be honest, so I'm looking for ways in too!

Regards
Nigel

quote:

I find the prospect of exploring this body of work [Bach Cantatas] utterly daunting, to be honest, so I'm looking for ways in too!

Dear Nigel,

You and me both! But I love Bach's music. It will take years! I might start with the Brilliant Classics ultra-budget complete Bach set, which I hope I am correct in thinking that pe zulu thinks is rather fine. I have doubts about Gardiner because of his very secular readings of the Passions. I have the Saint John even so ... Fantastic instrumental virtuosity, and the text as a vehicle for superb sounds, but missing the point in my view. The music really must serve the text - not the other way round, IMHO.

When Elgar edited the Saint Matthew Passion [about 1896], he carefully recomposed [and it does not show, because it is a question of word setting rhythms, very subtlely managed] some of the music so that it underlined the English words as Bach had in his orignal German [Lutheran] version, with gentle emphasis. Elgar is not usually recognised as an expert on the Baroque, but his work on the English tongue performing edition [always used if sung in English even now] has been very significant, if not often recognised. A labour of love for which he did not gain a penny ...

The best recording in English remains the Jacques recording for Decca in 1947/8 with Furrier, and still available on Dutton Vocation CDs. Priceless in terms of getting to the spiritual heart of the matter. A blue print as an edition and a performance for many hundreds of English language live performances since.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
I might start with the Brilliant Classics ultra-budget complete Bach set, which I hope I am correct in thinking that pe zulu thinks is rather fine.

The strength of this set is first and foremost the recordings of the complete instrumental music, which I would rate between very good and exellent, with the single exception of Leon Berben´s horrible and sloppy WTC.

I also like the Passions of Stephan Cleobury and the h-minor Mass and Christmas Oratory of Harry Christophers.
The Sacred Cantatas are a mixed bag, and even here the instrumental contributions are very good, whereas the choir (boys choir) often sounds underrehearsed and the soloists are variable, the most prominent of those being soprano Ruth Holton displaying a beautiful boyish but not very expressive voice, bas Bas Ramselar a warm slim expressive voice, male alto (Sytse Buwalda) probably a pupil of René Jacobs, whom he sounds like with this unpleasant affected voice, and the otherwise fine Dutch tenor Nico van der Meel not always being in optimal shape (probably also underrehearsed). I do not care for the secular Cantatas with Peter Schreier. But all in all this set is value for money but not that well suited, if you acquire it primarily to get the Sacred Cantatas.

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

Preston and Pinnock are on superb form and the recordings are exemplary.
In the old days I had LPs [on EMI] with Menuhin leading the Bath Festival Orchestra in this music, but these new performances please me a good deal more.

How does Preston compare to himself in these two different recordings?

Hi George!

I'm glad you recommended the Preston / Pinnock. This is a set I will look for.

Last fall I was on a quest to devote more time to Haendel and learn more about him. It was clear that I was dreadfully unfamiliar with a large part of what this composer has to offer. Besides some single discs of some of the Chamber works and Orchestral works and of course, multiple copies of The Messiah, I had gaping holes everywhere.

I know you are not really a fan of box sets but if I could I would like to recommend one that I picked up which I believe was a tremendous value. It has given me the opportunity to be exposed to a great deal of Haendel and this cannot be a bad thing. For some, this is the only set they would need if they were interested in a nice overview of Haendel. I can always add the great finds (like your recommendation above) from time to time and grow from there.

I'm talking about the Decca 30 CD set called Handel "The Masterworks." It certainly is not complete but has a very nice cross-section, including the Organ Concertos. It is mostly recordings of Marriner / Academy of St. Martin in the Fields, as well as some Pinnock, Preston, Mackerras, Hogwood, Gardiner, Minkowski etc. It was very reasonably priced.

As for the Bach Cantatas, this is a subject very near and dear to my heart. I've been working at these for the past 10 years anyway and I know this will continue for the remainder of my life. I probably listen to 2-4 Cantatas per week minimum. Sometimes the same one even multiple times per week.

Again, I think I might approach things slightly differently from yourself and I don't know how to recommend just one or the best individual one. My plan is to eventually be knowledgeable enough to compare the lot of main players. My goal for towards the end of this year is to start getting the Harnoncourt / Leonhardt and then possibly the Koopman. I have not heard many of these though to date.

What I do have (and am mostly in the process of collecting) for main sets is Richter, Gardiner (Arkiv & SDG), Herreweghe, Rilling, and Suzuki. From my view their is something valuable and good in every set. They mostly have a different approach in most cases. None are totally perfect nor totally lacking but do carry the signature traits of the men who lead them.

Currently, I have to say that I am spending the most time with Suzuki (maybe because I just recently started his sets maybe last October/November) and then Rilling. Both are meticulous in preserving and delivering the details. With Suzuki, I especially appreciate that it doesn't come off as a "performance" and this is really important to me. The point of the Cantatas is certainly not to push the showmanship but more for the aid of worship for a devout audience and purpose. Suzuki and Rilling come across as genuine men who not only seriously study this music by devoting their lives to it but are men of faith as well and this translates into real honest interpretations for me. That's just how I feel at this point in time. As I keep listening and learning I'm sure my tastes will evolve over time too.

If the correct delivery of the German text is important to you the Rilling does have a slight advantage in that most of the performers are probably German speakers. This doesn't bother me about Suzuki but I have known others who have commented about this.

Another consideration is the tone or feeling of the music overall. Bach conveyed all the human emotions equally, I feel, in his music and certainly this is shown in the Cantatas. Whether sad, dark, joyous, or elated we need to feel this along with him. The text usually dictates the tone and the music perfectly reflects this.

The 200 Cantatas on there own prove Bach's genius. When you add to it the total creation of Bach it just leaves one speechless. George, I do hope you are able to start sooner than later in your Cantata project.

Regards,
Doug

Currently waiting delivery of Handel Organ Concertos on 3 LP's ( 1~5 6~9 10~13 ) that i purchased from eBay on Sunday:
Daniel Chorzempa organ
Concerto Amsterdam conducted by Jaap Schroder
on pristine condition Philips vinyl.

Also awaiting:
Handel 4 Sonaten Fur Flote Und Continuo / Ferdinand Conrad - Johannes Koch - Hugo Ruf ~ Archiv LP

Should arrive any day now : )

Debs

quote:

Currently, I have to say that I am spending the most time with Suzuki (maybe because I just recently started his sets maybe last October/November) and then Rilling. Both are meticulous in preserving and delivering the details. With Suzuki, I especially appreciate that it doesn't come off as a "performance" and this is really important to me. The point of the Cantatas is certainly not to push the showmanship but more for the aid of worship for a devout audience and purpose. Suzuki and Rilling come across as genuine men who not only seriously study this music by devoting their lives to it but are men of faith as well and this translates into real honest interpretations for me. That's just how I feel at this point in time. As I keep listening and learning I'm sure my tastes will evolve over time too.

Hi Doug, thanks for a really informative post. I've thought for a while that if I were to start exploring the cantatas seriously, I would go for the Suzuki, especially as these have started to be issued in convenient (and relatively cheap) box sets. Your comment about his focus on the devotional aspect of the music confirms that, for me, this would be the way to go. I fear that Gardiner's interpretations will fall too much into the "performance" category, based on the other Bach I've heard from him. My German is not good enough to make me hyper-fussy about nuances of pronunciation!

That Handel box look slike a good tip too. I don't have any strong desire to hear more Handel, but I suspect that once I start, I'll ask myself why I waited so long.

Regards
Nigel

George - I was going to suggest we ask pe-zulu for his thoughts on the cantatas in the Brilliant Classics Bach mega-set, but he beat me to it! I have no complaints about the set as a whole - great value for money, a useful work of reference, and some great performances to boot (many more than enough to justify the asking price). As for the cantatas in the set... I really like the idea of hearing them, as Bach might have done, via a relatively unrehearsed group of singers and musicians, lacking the absolute polish of the top flight classical performers of today. I need to give them more attention before I decide whether the idea is better than the reality!

Such nice replies!

Sometimes this Forum is simply better than could be imagined or hoped, because of the contributions of members.

I hope you will allow me time to ponder the Bach recommendations, and then ask a few more questions perhaps!

I am glad I hedged on Poul's [pe zulu's] opinion on the Brillaint Classics set, because the big hole in my recordings of Bach is actually the Canataa!

Thanks for a day anyway! ATB from George

George, I almost forgot to mention I attended a lunchtime concert in Sheffield yesterday (part of the regular "Music in the Round" season). The music was for various combinations of piano, violin, and double bass - starting with a solo piece for the last of these. It was by a composer called Fryba (never heard of him!) and was a dance suite for solo double bass, modelled on Bach's Cello suites. It was a respectful homage, rather than a dreary pastiche, and I liked it a lot. It seems to be an obscure piece if my search of Amazon is anything to go by. But I bet you've come across it, being a Bach loving bass player, and wondered what your thoughts were.

Regards
Nigel

Dear Nigel,

Sorry to say that I don't know the music you heard at the concert. What is so lovely about concerts is the occasional nugget of unknown but lovely music - even if you only ever come across it once.

I wish the musical life was a little less thin and terribly conservative in Worcester!

ATB from George

OK, it must be obscure! Here's the most informative link I could find (the comments are worth reading):

Fryba - Suite for Double Bass

It includes download links for the entire suite (though I can't get the Gavottes to play on my PC).

Very interesting piece. It was a lovely concert, which also included a Schubert sonata for the arpeggione, scored for piano and double bass.

Superb!

Anyone who fancies something Bachian that works on the 'bass should listen to this. Those who think double basses make a woolly inarticulate sound will be surprised by this! A very nice recording which accurately reports how a bass sounds in the chamber setting.

I am going to send this to David Daly, the first double bass player in the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, who is also a recitalist!

And once was my teacher! ATB from George

PS: It reminds me of the lovely times at lessons when David would play me something so sweet!

Hello George,

here you can get many informations about Bach Cantatas, but it`s in German.

Manfred

quote:

Superb!

Glad you like it!
At the risk of appearing "chavvy"...

Dear Manni,

I have a lot of work to do finding the set to make the plunge for. I cannot afford to get two or three sets. I have to get one that is fine most of the time, and as I find the occasional less than successful individual performance, then cover it with an indivudual release from someone else.

I am quite an admirer of Rilling on the basis that he makes a superb performance of the the Solemne Vespers of the Confessor by Mozart. This performance really managed everything for me.

But I have to consider the Leonhardt/Harnoncourt set very seriously. I think Gardiner is too much of a risk ...

A very big decision ...

Unfortunately reading German is not my strong point. Road signs and simple public notices I can understand but anything that is subtle is missed by me sadly.

Thank you so much for taking an interest in this for me.

ATB from George

PS: I find that a good way is to listen to the MP3 samples on Amazon. This worth ten thousand words in truth. On the words of a choral production I love Latin as I was lucky enough to have that forced on me at school. For German, I have to learn it [from the trnaslations provided], and that is a mamouth task. It requires real patience. The Passions are so well understood by me that I no longer have to think about it in the course of the music, but that is simply another big part of the massive aspect of acquainting myself with the Bach Cantatas, which no doubt are as life enhancing as Haydn Symphonies or String Quartets [still work in progress!].

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu:

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

Preston and Pinnock are on superb form and the recordings are exemplary.

...Menuhin leading the Bath Festival Orchestra in this music...

How does Preston compare to himself in these two different recordings?

Dear Poul,

These Handel Organ Concerto recordings had a very different feel in every aspect. Perhaps Preston was fairly constant in approach, but the recording style in those old EMI LPs was very closely microphoned, and gave his playing an aggressive touch, and a feeling of over-articulation.

The orchestral style of the Bath Festival Orchestra is as you might expect from the cream of the London players present some nearly fifty years ago. Very lush, very sweet, and full toned, and better able to face the very close recordings than Preston's selected small organs. For me however, I found it over-romantic. Too full of miniature gradations of tone and dynamic which ended up sounding feminine and over-fussy. Ultimately I tired of what seemed twee.

The Pinnock set has a present and clear recording, which puts the organ in equal perspective with the band, but never emphasizes the oddities of organ tone that can emerge if listened to from too close.

The band plays in a magnificently masculine way. Fully of depth and having that lovely "dark" baroque sound I associate with gut string and very fine playing. There is nothing plain about the playing, but it is not over-interpreted. A fine balance of subtle and robust in my view.

I suspect that Preston is less exuberant than in the old days, and more poised! But his salient articulate style remains across both sets.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

The band plays in a magnificently masculine way. Fully of depth and having that lovely "dark" baroque sound I associate with gut string and very fine playing. There is nothing plain about the playing, but it is not over-interpreted. A fine balance of subtle and robust in my view.

Dear George

Thanks for your elaborate reply. Even if I am not a great Händelian, Pinnocks recording of the Concerti Grossi op.6 have been my favorite version during many years precisely for the reasons you mention characterizes the playing of this ensemble. So based on your recomendation I put the Organ concertos on my wishlist.

Kind regards, Poul