Is there a "Time Warp" with Linn?
Posted by: JohnMak on 18 July 2003
I have noticed that nearly all Naim users are LP12 evangelists.
Is there a reason for this? I am an ex avid Linnie and I'm now again in the market for a turntable. I've listened to several of the more recent (less than 10 year old) developments in turntable design and performance. At it's current price and performance level I don't think the LP12 could even justify shortlisting for a new purchaser irrespective of budget. It's pricing and performance is ridiculous compared to modern designs.
I'm really puzzled why it's still so highly regarded by Naimees because it really isn't that good any more compared to cheaper alternatives. Is it a time warp "cult" thing??
Is there a reason for this? I am an ex avid Linnie and I'm now again in the market for a turntable. I've listened to several of the more recent (less than 10 year old) developments in turntable design and performance. At it's current price and performance level I don't think the LP12 could even justify shortlisting for a new purchaser irrespective of budget. It's pricing and performance is ridiculous compared to modern designs.
I'm really puzzled why it's still so highly regarded by Naimees because it really isn't that good any more compared to cheaper alternatives. Is it a time warp "cult" thing??
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by bjorne
sigh... 
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by Tuan
quote:
Originally posted by JohnMak:
I have noticed that nearly all Naim users are LP12 evangelists.
Is there a reason for this? I am an ex avid Linnie and I'm now again in the market for a turntable. I've listened to several of the more recent (less than 10 year old) developments in turntable design and performance. At it's current price and performance level I don't think the LP12 could even justify shortlisting for a new purchaser irrespective of budget. It's pricing and performance is ridiculous compared to modern designs.
I'm really puzzled why it's still so highly regarded by Naimees because it really isn't that good any more compared to cheaper alternatives. Is it a time warp "cult" thing??
Rega P9 is considered top notch now with recent development, also Wilson Benesch should be considered.
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by Markus
JohnMak,
I suspect you may be right regarding the relative price/performance ratio of the LP 12 when sold at new retail prices.
For myself, I consider the breakthrough value of LP 12's to be on the used market where they are valued right around $1250/give or take $500-1000, depending on bearing, arm, power supply, etc.
I consider a used LP12 at $1250 to be an absolute bargain!!
Markus
----
I suspect you may be right regarding the relative price/performance ratio of the LP 12 when sold at new retail prices.
For myself, I consider the breakthrough value of LP 12's to be on the used market where they are valued right around $1250/give or take $500-1000, depending on bearing, arm, power supply, etc.
I consider a used LP12 at $1250 to be an absolute bargain!!
Markus
----
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by ejl
JohnMak,
On the assumption that you are serious and not trolling, you might want to do a search on this, which has been discussed many times and (IMO) ad nauseam.
Here's the most recent, actively discussed until one week ago today:
What is it about the LP12?
Although anyone here is free to keep asking the same loaded questions (your question loaded since it directly implies that recent LP12 purchasers made choices due to some kind of "cult" mentality, rather than on rational grounds), the answers and responses from all sides have now been well-rehearsed and are frankly predictable.
(That, or I've been reading this forum for too long
)
Eric
On the assumption that you are serious and not trolling, you might want to do a search on this, which has been discussed many times and (IMO) ad nauseam.
Here's the most recent, actively discussed until one week ago today:
What is it about the LP12?
Although anyone here is free to keep asking the same loaded questions (your question loaded since it directly implies that recent LP12 purchasers made choices due to some kind of "cult" mentality, rather than on rational grounds), the answers and responses from all sides have now been well-rehearsed and are frankly predictable.
(That, or I've been reading this forum for too long
) Eric
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by joe90
Remember that the Linn could be turned into a Naim! Once you put the Aro, Prefix, Armageddon et al, it was very Naimed.
Also, you can still get spares.
However, there are some very good alternatives. The new P9 seems to be the star of the show, and has all the benfits of a really simple design and typical Rega vfm.
Remeber the things last a while so buying a piece of jewellery whose makers that will not be around for very long, is not a good idea when you need it fixed.
Joe90
Also, you can still get spares.
However, there are some very good alternatives. The new P9 seems to be the star of the show, and has all the benfits of a really simple design and typical Rega vfm.
Remeber the things last a while so buying a piece of jewellery whose makers that will not be around for very long, is not a good idea when you need it fixed.
Joe90
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by JeremyD
The resale value of my LP12/Lingo/Cirkus/Ekos must be £1000 to £1200 at best. What beats it for that price?
As for other turntables, the only other one I've heard in recent years (i.e. about 7 years ago) was a Well Tempered, which may have been as good as the Linn but I wouldn't like to bet on it.
--J
As for other turntables, the only other one I've heard in recent years (i.e. about 7 years ago) was a Well Tempered, which may have been as good as the Linn but I wouldn't like to bet on it.
--J
Posted on: 18 July 2003 by joe90
You go Derek!!!
Joe90
Joe90
Posted on: 19 July 2003 by David Stewart
John,
Clearly the last thing you should go out and buy is an LP12, you obviously made your mind up about that long ago and I doubt there's anything more that can be said about it's musicality, upgradability, maintainability and affordability that's going to sway you.
I certainly don't think you should be influenced by the fact that during the quarter century the LP12 has been around, many other 'great new' TTs have come and gone! ('up like a rocket and down like a stick'). Very few, apart from Rega are still in production in any form and many have disappeared without trace.
No, if I were you I'd definitely go and buy the latest and greatest new turntable and just look upon it as a bonus if you can still get parts and upgrades for it in 5 years time. Just my 2p worth.
David
Clearly the last thing you should go out and buy is an LP12, you obviously made your mind up about that long ago and I doubt there's anything more that can be said about it's musicality, upgradability, maintainability and affordability that's going to sway you.
I certainly don't think you should be influenced by the fact that during the quarter century the LP12 has been around, many other 'great new' TTs have come and gone! ('up like a rocket and down like a stick'). Very few, apart from Rega are still in production in any form and many have disappeared without trace.
No, if I were you I'd definitely go and buy the latest and greatest new turntable and just look upon it as a bonus if you can still get parts and upgrades for it in 5 years time. Just my 2p worth.
David
Posted on: 19 July 2003 by Mick P
Chaps
Whilst the LP12 is undeniably an excellent turntable, I am sure that most people buy one because it is the one to have. Also the linn-Naim axis does push people to buying them.
The problem with the LP12, and this takes a degree of honesty to admit it, is that very few people, dealers included in this day and age, have the ability to set one up properly.
Therefore most of them do not sound as good as they should.
Even the owners who know what they are doing, and there are precious few of them around, agonise as to whether the thing is set up correctly or not.
I have heard a rega P9 with the 1000 arm and it is damn good and a doddle to set up. This would be my choice if buying new.
My Garrard 401 is ultra reliable and sounds superb now that the old rumble problem is cured by using a heavy Loricraft plinth. Spares by the way are easily available, not that you ever need them. These things are over engineered and go on forever.
I just wish more people would look at other alternatives before wading in with a LP12.
Regards
Mick
Whilst the LP12 is undeniably an excellent turntable, I am sure that most people buy one because it is the one to have. Also the linn-Naim axis does push people to buying them.
The problem with the LP12, and this takes a degree of honesty to admit it, is that very few people, dealers included in this day and age, have the ability to set one up properly.
Therefore most of them do not sound as good as they should.
Even the owners who know what they are doing, and there are precious few of them around, agonise as to whether the thing is set up correctly or not.
I have heard a rega P9 with the 1000 arm and it is damn good and a doddle to set up. This would be my choice if buying new.
My Garrard 401 is ultra reliable and sounds superb now that the old rumble problem is cured by using a heavy Loricraft plinth. Spares by the way are easily available, not that you ever need them. These things are over engineered and go on forever.
I just wish more people would look at other alternatives before wading in with a LP12.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 19 July 2003 by Mick P
Derek
In the heyday of vinyl, the Lp12 was without doubt one of the best TT's around. Especially as it was linked with Naim.
In those days, most dealers could compentantly set up a LP up and could show most owners how to do it.
Today, if is difficult to find a good dealer who can do it unless you are prepared to travel.
The Garrard and Rega require no setting and are reliable as well as sounding good.
My main point is that when someone decides to go for a TT, they just go automatically for a LP12 which is to problematical for comfort.
Regards
Mick
In the heyday of vinyl, the Lp12 was without doubt one of the best TT's around. Especially as it was linked with Naim.
In those days, most dealers could compentantly set up a LP up and could show most owners how to do it.
Today, if is difficult to find a good dealer who can do it unless you are prepared to travel.
The Garrard and Rega require no setting and are reliable as well as sounding good.
My main point is that when someone decides to go for a TT, they just go automatically for a LP12 which is to problematical for comfort.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 19 July 2003 by FangfossFlyer
.....so did anyone ever write a book on how best to set up an LP12?
Richard
Richard
Posted on: 19 July 2003 by dave simpson
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Olsen:
.....so did anyone ever write a book on how best to set up an LP12?
Richard
Yes, Linn did..and depending on the version, it's called "The LP-12 Technical Manual", "The LP-12 Setup Manual", or "The LP-12 Service Manual".
regards,
dave
P.S. If anyone wants a PDF copy...email me.
Posted on: 19 July 2003 by joe90
You GO Derek!
Joe90
Joe90
Posted on: 20 July 2003 by JohnMak
Hi guys, I am certainly not anti Linn LP12. In fact I loved mine and if I still owned it,
I first bought it when living in London in 1982 and kept it until 1994 ... upgrading it with every new bit that came out and had excellent service from The Absolute Sound in Auckland NZ. It got crushed being air freighted back from Sweden and I had the devils own job convincing the Insurance company that it cost back then NZ13,000 to replace. If I still owned it I would not even consider changing it. I had hoped I made that clear when I mentioned "price/performance" at new prices. I'm in the market for a new TT and spent some time in Singapore recently looking at a few - really wanted to see the P9 but couldn't find it at the time. I did get to extensively audition a German Scheu Premier which impressed me greatly at SGD4,500 complete with arm and cartrige. In Singapore the Rega P9 costs it costs SGD5,900 with arm (no cartridge) the LP12 was around SGD16,000. That's a pretty large difference.
Mick, I agree with you about the Garrard 301/401 (I owned one of them also before the LP12) but the rumble was a bit off-putting. I emailed Loricraft about 9 days ago asking about their upgrades but still waiting for a reply. I still have my old record collection of nearly 2000 discs and after hearing a few TT's again recently, I am keen to be able to access them again but I don't want to spend $16,000 to do it.
I didn't intend to offend any exisiting LP12 owners. You guys are on a winner.
I first bought it when living in London in 1982 and kept it until 1994 ... upgrading it with every new bit that came out and had excellent service from The Absolute Sound in Auckland NZ. It got crushed being air freighted back from Sweden and I had the devils own job convincing the Insurance company that it cost back then NZ13,000 to replace. If I still owned it I would not even consider changing it. I had hoped I made that clear when I mentioned "price/performance" at new prices. I'm in the market for a new TT and spent some time in Singapore recently looking at a few - really wanted to see the P9 but couldn't find it at the time. I did get to extensively audition a German Scheu Premier which impressed me greatly at SGD4,500 complete with arm and cartrige. In Singapore the Rega P9 costs it costs SGD5,900 with arm (no cartridge) the LP12 was around SGD16,000. That's a pretty large difference.
Mick, I agree with you about the Garrard 301/401 (I owned one of them also before the LP12) but the rumble was a bit off-putting. I emailed Loricraft about 9 days ago asking about their upgrades but still waiting for a reply. I still have my old record collection of nearly 2000 discs and after hearing a few TT's again recently, I am keen to be able to access them again but I don't want to spend $16,000 to do it.
I didn't intend to offend any exisiting LP12 owners. You guys are on a winner.
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by JohanR
I have a full Linn rig (LP12/Ekos/Arkiv B/Lingo) on a M*n* copy thing. Fully satisfied! But if I would start from scratch today I would probably go for a P9.
Quote from Peter Henry:
"you would hardly have a Lotus serviced by your local garage now would you?"
Isn't it a little unfair to Linn to compare the LP12 with Lotus? At least when it comes to quality.
JohanR
Quote from Peter Henry:
"you would hardly have a Lotus serviced by your local garage now would you?"
Isn't it a little unfair to Linn to compare the LP12 with Lotus? At least when it comes to quality.
JohanR
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by Chris Metcalfe
"the reviewers Paul Messenger and Martin Colloms
use the combination outlined above"...
Not entirely true - last I read, PM had adopted / adapted a Rega RB1000 and P9 power supply onto his LP12 (why not just use the P9?), and although MC has long been an advocate of the Aro, I believe he still uses a Lingo rather than an Armageddon. Interestingly, Ken Kessler, a solid round-earther whose decks include the Thorens TD124 and SME 10 (both great turntables), also has the full LP12/Ekos/etc in use. Last I read.
Anyway, just unpacked mine after 9 months in storage (the LP12, not me) and it still sounds superb, but somehow (after 2 hours' fiddly setup) I hanker for a P9....
use the combination outlined above"...
Not entirely true - last I read, PM had adopted / adapted a Rega RB1000 and P9 power supply onto his LP12 (why not just use the P9?), and although MC has long been an advocate of the Aro, I believe he still uses a Lingo rather than an Armageddon. Interestingly, Ken Kessler, a solid round-earther whose decks include the Thorens TD124 and SME 10 (both great turntables), also has the full LP12/Ekos/etc in use. Last I read.
Anyway, just unpacked mine after 9 months in storage (the LP12, not me) and it still sounds superb, but somehow (after 2 hours' fiddly setup) I hanker for a P9....
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by Top Cat
Hmmmm...
I'm getting very excited - my LP12 has been away for over a fortnight now - it went away as a bog-standard-setup, LP12/Valhalla/Aro with a Clearaudio cartridge with a blob of blu-tac to make up the appropriate weight (no kidding) but will come back as an LP12/Armageddon2*/Aro/Lyra Helikon and setup by one of the accepted masters of the genre, Robert Ritchie of Montrose.
Oh, the anticipation...
* Armageddon2 == new style casework 'Geddon.
John
PS. Due to lack of shelves I may be considering going full circle and doing the unthinkable - a Mana Ref Table... whoops, I only meant to think that, not write it...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
I'm getting very excited - my LP12 has been away for over a fortnight now - it went away as a bog-standard-setup, LP12/Valhalla/Aro with a Clearaudio cartridge with a blob of blu-tac to make up the appropriate weight (no kidding) but will come back as an LP12/Armageddon2*/Aro/Lyra Helikon and setup by one of the accepted masters of the genre, Robert Ritchie of Montrose.
Oh, the anticipation...
* Armageddon2 == new style casework 'Geddon.
John
PS. Due to lack of shelves I may be considering going full circle and doing the unthinkable - a Mana Ref Table... whoops, I only meant to think that, not write it...
TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by Kevin-W
TC
I know how you feel. My LP12-Valhalla-Cirkus-Ittok LVIII-K9 is away too and will re-emerge as an LP12-Lingo 2–Cirkus -Ittok-Klyde (rebuilt by Expert Stylus).
Can't wait either.
Kevin
I know how you feel. My LP12-Valhalla-Cirkus-Ittok LVIII-K9 is away too and will re-emerge as an LP12-Lingo 2–Cirkus -Ittok-Klyde (rebuilt by Expert Stylus).
Can't wait either.
Kevin
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by domfjbrown
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I just wish more people would look at other alternatives before wading in with a LP12.
quote:
Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Today, if is difficult to find a good dealer who can do it unless you are prepared to travel.
The Garrard and Rega require no setting and are reliable as well as sounding good.
My main point is that when someone decides to go for a TT, they just go automatically for a LP12 which is to problematical for comfort.
Here here Mick - I don't want to annoy LP12 owners (as I *know* I'm in the minority here!!!!) but I too can't really see what all the hype with the LP12 is about - it's a pain to set up, goes "off", and is way too sensitive to footfall etc. However, an LP12 with all the Naim bits on DOES sound good to me - the PSU on a Linn certainly seems to give the deck a lot of its sound.
I'm a Rega user personally, partly because they're affordable and reliable, but also because suspended decks and me don't mix - there's no way in hell I can safely cue up on an LP12 - certainly not with an Aro - as I always use an arm lifter (paranoia??). I'd LOVE to own a Michell Gyro with QC PSU as they don't sound too bad and look a billion dollars, but it's that old chestnut of the suspension again.
A Rega P9 is a very nice deck IMHO. What's the most expensive non-suspended deck, out of curiosity - Nottingham Analog Anna-Log?? One day I'll probably invest in a 301/401 myself as my old £5-from-carboot-sale Dual 1229 from 1998 had excellent bass extension - even if everything else it did was a bit sloppy!
Oh - just thought - the WORST thing on the LP12 is that bloody awful 45 RPM adaptor - how much pressure do you need to put it on the motor - surprised the motor works just after one use of this nasty device... Crunch grind scrape = eeek!!!
When the music's over turn out the lights
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by Mekon
Dom - check your PMs
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by Bhoyo
quote:
Originally posted by domfjbrown:
Oh - just thought - the WORST thing on the LP12 is that bloody awful 45 RPM adaptor - how much pressure do you need to put it on the motor - surprised the motor works just after one use of this nasty device... Crunch grind scrape = eeek!!!
Or you get a Lingo and push a button. Hey presto - 45 rpm!
Actually, I do remember those pre-Lingo days with horror. When I bought my LP12 and commented on the lack of 45 rpm, my dealer told me: "Linn buyers don't play singles." I was too intimidated and embarrassed to mention that, you know, well, ahem, actually - I do.
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by P
Uh?
What's with the complication?
The Lp12 is simple in every respect
I'll say no more.
P
What's with the complication?
The Lp12 is simple in every respect
I'll say no more.
P
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by JohnMak
Hi to all responders ... especially Mick Parry,
While I loved my former LP12 to bits. Apart from the high cost of buying a new one it is just not an option for me living in Vietnam. So I was looking for easy to set-up/install, and dare I say it, sensibly priced alternatives.
I have today bought a second hand Garrard 401 with an SME arm (don't know the model) and Clear Audio MM cartridge and Zenn plinth. I have no idea about the cartridge or plinth but at $1,000 Singapore dollars (I think that's around 300 pounds) I figure it's a good risk.
Mick, I still haven't had a response from Loricraft but not too worried as I have downloaded some interesting looking plinth designs for DIY designs for the 401 from the internet. Labour and materials are ridiculously cheap here in Vietnam so I couldn't care less about getting a plinth built here.
I would though appreciate any info you have on suitable tone arms. I'm still waiting for the exact model of the SME arm .... the owner said SME3009. Is that the model number???
I don't care if I have to replace the arm and or cartridge as at only SGD1,000 the TT is a gift. I would welcome any comment you have re suitable tonearms. I will probably stay with MM cartidge for a while as my present amp doesn't have MC inputs. The Tom Evans Groove may be more than I want to spend right now
There are some great reviews on the internet about the Garrard 401 which I have printed off. I'm looking ofrward to getting my hands on it .... pit all my LP's are still in storage in Australia.
While I loved my former LP12 to bits. Apart from the high cost of buying a new one it is just not an option for me living in Vietnam. So I was looking for easy to set-up/install, and dare I say it, sensibly priced alternatives.
I have today bought a second hand Garrard 401 with an SME arm (don't know the model) and Clear Audio MM cartridge and Zenn plinth. I have no idea about the cartridge or plinth but at $1,000 Singapore dollars (I think that's around 300 pounds) I figure it's a good risk.
Mick, I still haven't had a response from Loricraft but not too worried as I have downloaded some interesting looking plinth designs for DIY designs for the 401 from the internet. Labour and materials are ridiculously cheap here in Vietnam so I couldn't care less about getting a plinth built here.
I would though appreciate any info you have on suitable tone arms. I'm still waiting for the exact model of the SME arm .... the owner said SME3009. Is that the model number???
I don't care if I have to replace the arm and or cartridge as at only SGD1,000 the TT is a gift. I would welcome any comment you have re suitable tonearms. I will probably stay with MM cartidge for a while as my present amp doesn't have MC inputs. The Tom Evans Groove may be more than I want to spend right now
There are some great reviews on the internet about the Garrard 401 which I have printed off. I'm looking ofrward to getting my hands on it .... pit all my LP's are still in storage in Australia.
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by Mick P
John
Congratulations on buying the 401, you will not be disappointed.
I will have a word with Terry ref your emails.
I would imagine that you have a SME 3009 series 2 arm fitted. It was a good match and is highly popular.
This arm is suitable for MM cartridges only and I would seriously suggest that you seek out a Rega RB300 arm. These arms are relatively inexpensive and come up frequently on Ebay at knock down prices. The advantages of the RB300 are
a) it is ludicrously cheap for the performance it gives. It will murder the SME.
b) it will fit staight in the hole left by the SME.
c) it is suitable for either MM or MC cartridges.
Your first priority should be to get a good solid plinth made up out of hard wood. If it can be done cheaply in Veitmam then good luck to you.
The advantage of the 401 is that you wont have to mess around with it because it will play great music the moment you start her up.
Regards
Mick
Congratulations on buying the 401, you will not be disappointed.
I will have a word with Terry ref your emails.
I would imagine that you have a SME 3009 series 2 arm fitted. It was a good match and is highly popular.
This arm is suitable for MM cartridges only and I would seriously suggest that you seek out a Rega RB300 arm. These arms are relatively inexpensive and come up frequently on Ebay at knock down prices. The advantages of the RB300 are
a) it is ludicrously cheap for the performance it gives. It will murder the SME.
b) it will fit staight in the hole left by the SME.
c) it is suitable for either MM or MC cartridges.
Your first priority should be to get a good solid plinth made up out of hard wood. If it can be done cheaply in Veitmam then good luck to you.
The advantage of the 401 is that you wont have to mess around with it because it will play great music the moment you start her up.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 21 July 2003 by P
Mrs Mills, Russ Conway, The Seekers and Shirley Bassey sounded pretty good on a Garrard IIRC
Ah the nostalgia.....
Music's great isn't it?
Never mind about who you know, or how much you've spent, it's just the music that matters.
Isn't it?
We should talk about it more often...
P
Ah the nostalgia.....
Music's great isn't it?
Never mind about who you know, or how much you've spent, it's just the music that matters.
Isn't it?
We should talk about it more often...
P