Question.

George

The surgeon and it is currently reflected fairly with respect to remumeration. Anyone can be a cleaner (no disrespect to cleaners).

Cue, George counter argument.

Cheers

Jim

Dear Jim,

I am going to leave my opinion in the [generally] unknown for a bit longer and with a few more responses here, first. My view is not political, but I might observe that neither is worth anything without the other, so that may give a clue!

George

Probably the worst move ever made was outsourcing the cleaning at hospitals because it appears to have taken control away from the health authorities. My wife is a nurse and finds it incredibly frustraing that the cleaners at her hospital are not allowed to clean away bodily fluids due to health and safety issues. What else is there that is more important to clean away in hospitals in order to prevent infection?!!

Nurses and HCAs are lumbered with this task instead, which takes them away from their primary task of patient care, or means that the cleaning doesn't get done properly because of the other demands on their time.

The surgeon is clearly the star performer and they do outstanding work, but infection control is a basic requirement for a hospital to function properly and proper cleaning (of property and people) is where it starts.

Mark

Mark

My wife is a nurse and a midwife and in a previous life I spent five years working as a lab tech for the Blood Transfusion Service (before leaving to escape the NHS pay structure!) so I agree with you on the issue surrounding cleanliness and infection control in the outsourced world of the NHS.

BTW, as an IT Outsourcer I support outsourcing in general but outsourcing part of the work scope seems asinine to me.

Cheers

Jim

quote:

The surgeon and it is currently reflected fairly with respect to remumeration. Anyone can be a cleaner (no disrespect to cleaners).

I spent most of a summer filling in the vacant post of Yorkshire and The Humber Area Manager for a friend's contract cleaning firm, and you'd be surprised how few people are good cleaners, but then you're generally hiring people between minimum and 7pph, I suppose the better cleaners became surgeons instead!

George

I would say they are equally important, but remuneration generally has nothing to do with that. Levels of skill, time, education and training required to become competent,supply and demand etc.

Most surgeons could do cleaning duties at short notice, fewer cleaners could perform operations...

Haven't met many cleaners that can replace a heart valve or repair a damaged limb in a field hospital (where you don't often find cleaners, either).

Anyone able-bodied (and to a certain extent, not so able) can be a cleaner, with the right training. Not everyone would want to, but I don't think that was Jim's point. Not everyone is capable of being a surgeon, and even some that are then don't prove particularly capable if you look at their success rates.

To my mind, cleanliness is a shared responsibility and not the responsibility of one group in an organisation. The responsibility of visitors to hospitals should not be forgotten either. Remuneration in healthcare is tricky, but outsourcing doesn't seem particularly appropriate as you just create an additional bureaucracy related to establishing and controlling these third party relationships which may not even be local to point of delivery.

But it doesn't hurt as much when the cardboard ones get thumped on Saturday night. If cardboard nurses reduce infections, why not?
Ken

making a career decision?

quote:

Originally posted by 555:
Cardboard nurses are asking patients and visitors to wash their hands

From visits to Intensive Care - I recall that "washing your hands" is a far more involved process than nipping into the washroom and giving them a quick rinse - then touching the tap again to turn it off.

One of the (historic?) barriers to proper hospital hygiene was consultants who refused to wash their hands between handling patients when doing ward rounds. This also then influenced student doctors to think it unnecessary.