Meet Me in London -- weird vinyl pressing

Thats exactly the opposite from my exprience.

Recently, I've got to compare the 24/192 download vs my 2002 copy of the vinyl and the latter by far had more tangible natural soundstage going whereas the high res file was all hifi stuff like dark background and such. 

Also, the cut we've tried 'Could you believe' had a this vocal coming out of the right channel much stronger than the left. Extreme left/right thing where as the vinyl offered much more natural cohesive vocal presence.

Now the system did not use a Naim DAC so its possible that it wasn't handling the 24/192 file correctly but it was fine on one other track we listened to albeit the vinyl still had more there. 

I was expecting something closer because that the album is digitally recorded.

Hi, Kuma, how did it happen that my pressing is mono?

I bought it from the Naim dealer.

What should I do? The vinyl is not listenable...

I'm so frustrated...

Arthur,

I have never heard the download.

My  vinyl copy has sounded brilliant on a few Naim LP12 systems over the years.

I would take it back and try another one.

Stu.

AMA.

If you think it's a pressing error, your dealer should be able to take the record back.

Ask your dealer to play the same record and see what he says.

I think there will be more complains.

It seems that the latest production bunch was mono-mastered by mistake.

The problem is that I bought this vinyl in CMY, official Naim dealer in Kuala-Lumpur (50 USD btw).

The pressing was sealed and I opened it up once I got back to Dubai.

I had a tremor in my hands when I was placing the vinyl on the platter -- I was so excited and obsessed to listen this wonderful performance on my LP12 and compare it to 24/192 through KDS.

You can imagine my frustration ...

Hi Guys,

The MMIL 192kHz edition is far more than a simple remaster. Its a full retrack and remix in 192kHz digital from the original 24 track analogue tapes. Something that is not as easy as it may seem! As even the biggest studios have forgone their tape machines for digital rigs (most of which STILL do not even support 192kHz effectively) and many 24 track tape machines are in disrepair - or the new generation of staff simply don't know how they work!

The 192kHz remix of MMIL has much harder panning of the vocal and guitar - to create the image of the two sitting in front of you, playing to each other, as they did when they recorded it - its a subjective experience - and most of the feedback has been that they miss the old mix! (I personally, think its a nice touch).

However, the original mix/master - from which the current pressing of the LP is made - is not mono, but would sound less 'stereo' if what you were expecting to hear (after listening to the 192kHz mix/master) was seperation of instrumentation - it uses the entire soundstage, but with less seperation of the left and right channels due to how the instrumental tracks have been individually mixed.

What this sounds like it proves is that the new mix and master is superior to the old, even on vinyl! Which, for me, is a very good sign indeed!

We'll be looking into a new vinyl edition from the NEW 192kHz mix/master of MMIL in the not too distant future!

This is a fascinating example, seemingly, of two different masterings from the same sessions that actually sound intentionally different.

It poses interesting questions, really. Which version is preferred by the performing artists? Which is more faithful to their intentions?

I reckon it is quite a risk to issue two different sounding masterings, because those potential purchasers, not aware that this has been done may suppose that one or the other is faulty!

And for those who think that there is such a thing as a perfect reording, then the question is, "Which one is most nearly perfect, or are both creations of the recording producer's imagining?"

ATB from George

Folks, I can't believe this weird pressing was intentionally mastered in mono.

On the "Take Five" 24/192 track Sabina is singing at left and Antonio is playing at right.

In my room they are separated by 4 meters and clearly focused in the space !!!

When I press "mono" button the soundstage collapses into a narrow strip between the speakers.

When I put newly bought vinyl the soundstage is already collapsed, both Sabina and Antonio perform in the center and pressing "mono" does not have any effect on the stage.

If pressing was intentionally mastered in mono it should have definitely got a "mono" label on it.

Thanks for the information Simon. I finally downloaded the 192 version a few weeks back and whilst it's an impressive recording, it does somewhat lack the intimacy of what was already a very fine recording on the 16/44.1 version. My overall impression listening to it is that it just feels a tad artificial and whilst it's a great demonstration of the potential of Hi-res, lacks the magic that made the original such a great listen. Still a fine disc though.

I find the new remix distracting and gimmicky but maybe the track fairs better if it was played via Naim's top digital source. Actually I asked him to try the track with a Naim digital source and see if it's less weird. Playing back a 24/192 files, in my experience, is harder depending on a DAC and most cases end up sounding less good so I was looking forward listening to Naim's version. Timing wasn't an issue obviously but the hard panning was something I wasn't expecting. 

Not sure I'd say *less* stereo but the original vinyl had more tactile presence of a singer albeit I could hear less details and note decays. ( this was friend's EKOS with a vintage MM cartridge Linn that I am not familiar with ) All I could say is that I could not get past that lefty-righty thing as it sounded wrong to me.

I think Naim succeeded in demonstrating vinly is less good than their latest streamer or what have you. It will make a handsome AB demo piece for most of the audience. 

I am not convinced of that but then I am not your target audience.

Is the CD going to be the lefty-righty thing, too?

AMA.

Simon said the vinyl pressing is mastered in stereo. Not in mono. It's got less panning than the high res. file. Think of it like a headphone amp 'cross-feed'.

I am not the one to be fussy with stereo image or soundstage but I didn't think it was bad on vinyl at all on friend's Sondek. we did not listen to Take Five but I'm gonna try to see what I hear on my system since now you got me curious. ( soundstage wise )

I personally really dislike the hard panning. Only played the hires a couple of times, now only play the CD rip on my NDX.

Kuma, in my case it's not just "less panning" but rather a lack of any. It's obviously mono -- pressing "mono" button on 552 does not change the stage.

I'm listening for AFQ, In Concert, 2008 Naim Label, 180 g -- wide stage, clear separation, very live.

I bought it the same day in the same shop in Kuala Lumpur...

Can you guys share of what do you hear on your pressing of Meet Me in London, 2002 Naim Label,  track "take Five"?

Who is on the left and who is on the right and are they clearly separated in space?

Mr Forcione, who has very clear ideas of how he wants his music to sound, attended the remix and remaster at 192kHz (so it is still very much faithful to the artists intentions), in the 15 years since the original recording there was many 'improvements' he wanted to make and relished the opportunity.

(though as James N suggests, it is quite plausible for people to prefer it when it is down to tape and that is that, as it has a certain magic).

It is not uncommon for a premium recording to be remastered but for original versions thereof to be still out there on the market. The new 192kHz version is clearly marketed as such. Ironically, I would recommend anyone who really detests the hard panning to listen to the album in mono!

I can assure you all, the original LP is not in mono and that instruments mixed centrally on the song Take Five appear equally on the left and right channel and thus would barely change at all when listened to summed.

If you have not already, perhaps watch this short documentary on the 192kHz of MMIL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXnAGIwicE

What you really need to take into aco****, as that as you re track every instrument one by one in 192kHz, and start from the ground up, there is no existing mix to work from, hence starting with a blank canvas and working up new creative ideas (with the artist!) from fresh - as opposed to trying to recreate a previous mix - a more clinical, less magical, process altogether, but I guess you'll have to take my word for it!

So how did it happen that my LP has the wide stage totally collapsed?

afaik the pressing process this can NOT happen to one particular copy.

It seems like the whole batch is faulty and there should be more complains coming 

AMA,

Sounds like you need to return your current copy and wait for their upcoming 24/192 remastered version of vinyl release.

I listened to the Take Five and whilst soundstage isn't wide, ( they sure are not separated by 4 meter) and the voice and guitar are more in close proximity. Maybe that's why you say this is a collapsed soundstage. 

Simon says the old pressing is more clinical, less magical and more processed than the new one. ( altho I hear just the opposite on a system I have heard it but maybe the magic happens when you use a Naim digital playback chain )

Simon,

The current vinyl pressing of 'None But the Lonely Heart' also done with a hard panning?

Is there a newer remixed vinyl version of this record?

Kuma, thanks a lot.

It makes a lot of sense.

I will keep this copy because the recording is very high quality and highly enjoyable.

I still feel the vinyl portrait voice and guitar in a more natural  and "softer" way.

But the macro-dynamic, soundstage and imaging are definitely higher on the 24/192 mastering.

My speakers create a HUGE and very COHERENT soundstage: deep and wide and the voices/instruments are hanging in the air while speakers disappear completely.  

With such a precise sound picture the difference between 24/192 wide panning mastering and LP version becomes dramatic! Though vinyl pressing has its own virtues of course.

AMA,

I don't find the new remastered hard panned version coherent at all. If find it destructing and unnatural. FWIW, speakers disappeared fine with the original version vinyl. It's the newer remix with hard panning version that friend's speakers did not disappear making the music sounding like a stereo demonstration disc.

As I said my friend does not use a Naim DAC so, it's possible its failings are due to that.

Simon says new version is what Focione and Naim think way forward as you find it also preferable to the older mix.

As for vinyl version sounding softer, transient impacts depend on how your Sondek is set up as well as the specs. My friend's LP12 is softer and romantic sounding than mine.

I too find the 24/192 a difficult listen. A good illustration of the clear differences are the opening few bars of "Could You Believe" where elements of the guitar first appear on both channels in a most unnatural way, dominating on the left, then when Sabina commences singing, she appears on the left channel with the accompaniment on the right channel! It's the original mastering for me every time.

    Richard.

Richard,

When we first put on the 'Could you Believe' 24/192 file, I thought I killed his system again ( I thought we lost one channel ) as the last time when I showed up as his place, unintentionally I've killed his amplifier by cranking Groove Armada.

Kuma, I listen through KDS/1 (not nDAC/555PS) and I can assure that 24/192 recording is extremely coherent and precise and holographic. The hard panning is the mastering technique which some may like or not -- it does not bother me at all. But the recording quality is extremely high: resolution, details, imaging. I have to say that 24/192 Meet Me in London through KDS is damn close to what the best analogue sources can offer. But the tonal balance is obviously shifted comparing to vinyl presentation. 

My LP12 is surely on soft side which help me to tolerate the old pressings.

Actually I do want it to stay this way with new tonearm and cartridge 

AMA / Kuma

I think maybe the Kharma's define the width of the soundstage with the 192 tracks. Both AMA & myself use them, and both with the KDS/1, though mine are not the top range ones. I get pretty much the same effect of a quite wide stage though not perhaps 4 feet and Sabina is singing on the left.

On 'Could you believe' as Richard says the initial guitar chords are distinctly on the left and can be heard to drift across to the right as Sabina starts singing on the right on the 192

On my LP ( the older pressing remastered for Vinyl 2002 ) as you say Kuma the soundstage is quite small and that is with my Michell so its not LP12 specific. The shifting guitar position of the 192 is not evident on the Vinyl everything stays in the same place throughout.

AMA you are pretty much right about the stage being closed up on the Vinyl and yes switching to mono on the Vinyl makes hardly any difference but there is enough of a stage there to be comfortable it is in stereo.

Kuma I agree, my 'original' Vinyl is in no way clinical sounding. In fact I prefer it to the 192 especially when I use the Koetsu to play it. AMA it is not soft sounding there are plenty of dynamics. In fact it is almost that the 192 seems 'compressed' for louder sound....tut tut shouldn't say that.

regards

geoff

Geoff,

I believe you prefer the vinyl playback with your delicious Koetsu.  I used to get natural unforced holographic image presence with Miyabi. Or in the past just use my pair of SET valve amps and get beautiful air and cavernous soundstage.

It might not be Naim or Focione's idea of truthful *proper* sound, but enjoyable nonetheless.

Interesting that you say 192 files sound compressed at louder level. I only listened to a few cuts from that album and all the tunes are simple enough that we couldn't tell.

I reckon you are right Kuma.

The 192 just seems to have overblown dynamics IMO hence my comment about it being like it is 'compressed'. Again this opens to question the whole thing about the audio presentation being down to the individual mastering the recording. 

Geoff

Guys, the panning on the 192kHz is a creative decision and not a technical one and thus we are all entitled to our opinions! i am sorry it is not as satisfying to some as some would like. there is no 'naim thinks this is best, overall' about it in this case, we just respect the artistic freedom of our artists and producers - which I personally feel is very important.

regarding None But The Lonely Heart, this is very different scenario as it is a two microphone recording entirely. what you hear on the Left channel is from the left hand mic in the stereo pair and thus the same for the right. no jiggory pokery. we've already remastered the original for 96kHz digital download and I do not think we have any plans to remaster the vinyl version.

i'm glad MMIL has become such a talking point though! its a brilliant album.