What LAN cable are you using in your streaming system?

Aleg, I agree with your point about many people - including reviewers being  hung up on the term jitter. I think in many cases so called 'jitter' is  being confused with other artefacts, where clearly sample timing jitter is very much disconnected or indirectly connected (ie RFI clock modulation) from the distortion being heard. 

Asfor your point of plausability, my advice

A) don't assume simplified block diagrams in white papers or wikis  is how things work at a low level... They don't - it's just a conceptual diagram to aid top level understand, usually for the layman. An actual diagram of all interactions and circuitry would be complex or unclear... 

B) in a system everything to a lesser or greater extent interacts with everything else

Given a) and b) there are probably an infinite number of variables to adjust that can change the response of a system. This can mean a changing the sound.

Now IMHO people tend to fall into three groups in consumer audio /hifi as I have seen over the years on this forum.

1) it's all irrelevant so ignore it. ( this group tends to be aloof from the workings and only interested in recorded music replay)

2) the huge degree of variability and options is unnerving and worrisome (ie have I got my equipment sounding the best it can be?) These people tend to deny the possibilities and dismiss the interactions as it doesn't fit thier often simplified understanding of how things work. (this group can be quite emotional and occasionally even aggressive to get thier point across). This group will be very sensitive to hifi / audio brands (either supportive or dismissive) and typically follow recommended setups to the letter of thier chosen brand(s)/ reviewer(s).

3) the huge degree of options and variability causes intrque and interest and gives rise to tweaking and experimenting, and largely have an open mind to trying relevant new things (the downside with this group is where they have no technical understanding they can fall prey to snake oils merchants, which can be used by group 2 to justify thier stance)

Aleg, if you are in group 3) you are in good company because that's where I tend to be as well 

You already have Galvanic isolation on the network port but as i mentioned further back on this topic, i suspect the isolation transformers on the network ports will readily pass high frequency noise on the cable into the device. The device you mention looks interesting - thanks for the link (i have the Baske medical isolator myself).

Simon - you mentioned something about frame sizes - could you explain more. 

James

PS - good to see a thread with some useful dialogue rather than dismissive can't make a difference / wont make a difference posts. 

Hi James, I can't remember talking about frame sizes, but I did mention broadcast frames.

Essentially a typical LAN, and consumer LANs can be bad here and generate many  broadcast frames. These are frames that  are sent and have to be processed by every network interface card and protocol stack plugged into that subnet or (or LAN for the typical home user). The broadcast frame is processed by the application and then discarded or used. This extra processing can produce processing noise on the device as the device is having to work harder due to external events. Therefore as  broadcast frames don't route (because they are layer 2 frames and not layer 3 packets), there can be an advantage for creating a seperate subnet for audio media, and keep all your other LAN traffic seperate. That way you keep the broadcast processing down to a minimum.

Now this can can get involved, and you should only consider if you know how to set up Unicast and multicast routing, and you might need to think about how you route your NAS if you use for other purposes in addition to audio, as well as bridge your Nstream  wifi SSID / network to your audio network ( and use a seperate wifi network for everything else)  . But if this all makes sense and is not daunting.. Give it a go. If you have a busy LAN in terms of lots of broadcasting applications (as opposed to bandwidth) it could be an interesting experiment.

Hint .. If you see your LAN switch lights flickering a lot to your naim network player and other devices in unison when you are not streaming, the chances are this is broadcast traffic. If they pulse only occasionally, or mostly not in unison broadcast traffic is unlikely to be an issue.

If you are technically minded and wish to see what's actually happening on your network you might like to download and run a copy of Wireshark, a free protocol analayser. A wonderful product that is widely used and respected in the industry. Amongst other things it will show you the amount of broadcast traffic on your network. Note: if you run wireshark on a PC connected to a switch, you will see all the broadcast traffic, but not unicast. If you want to sniff all the traffic on your network then you will need to connect your devices to a hub, rather than a switch. There's lots of learning resource on the Wireshark site to get you started, if you decide to give it a go.

http://www.wireshark.org/

... or you could just borrow some Audioquest cables from your dealer. This has the advantage of being open to technical and non-technical people and the Carbon cables are not much more expensive than the ordinary stuff. 

Keith

We borrowed some Vodka cable which is on the NDX to bridge. All I can say is try it if interested. We're keeping ours and have ordered some for bridge to NAS. Should an NDS come and stay we'll order a third length.

The HDX had to go on the top level because the network cable socket sits directly behind the back post (this socket needs to be moved if more resent HDXs haven't addressed it already). It's OK for a patch lead or something which doesn't have a long termination plug. 

There is no harm in trying different Ethernet cables to your network player if you don't want to use chokes or an isolator that Aleg suggested, but please bear in mind this is basic stuff and you shouldn't need to pay more than a few pounds for a 1m length of patch lead.  and if it is please ask the vendor why they are charging so much for thier piece of UTP or STP cable and be confident you are not being hood winked, because this area is the latest fad for making a fast buck, so buyer beware, and try before you buy..)  but this is completely unrelated to the broadcast frames that James asked about and Keith commented on..  They are addressing very different distortion effects and shouldn't confuse the two.

Ie cables are about coupled RFI, and broadcast processing is more about processing noise that is genereated within the network player and is more akin to audible decoding differences between FLAC and wave files.

Simon

Hi Simon, 

Both Harry and I use the same dealer. I can't speak for Harry, but I totally trust them and know that they would never sell anything that they don't believe in. They listened to them and were blown away, and so was I.

Apparently, Audioquest are at a loss to explain why these cables work and, at the end of the day, does it matter?  Yes, their marketing puff is a bit dodgy, but Naim are not entirely innocent in that regard (the NDS could be upgraded with the DAC, according to the website, when it was first released). 

To this day, electrical engineers and physics PHDs write letters to the hi fi press to tell us why cables make no difference and that we "shouldn't Need to pay more than a few pounds" for them. Less than two years ago, many on this forum had convinced themselves that all streamers sounded the same and the only thing that mattered was the DAC. Today, we're excited about a £6k streamer with no power supply! 

If a cable makes a difference akin to that made by a black box, it is worth paying more than a few pounds for and if it makes little or no difference it's not worth paying much. Either way, the only way to decide is listen. 

Keith

Keith, if you are happy thats  what it is all about. I am an engineer and I understand why cable design makes a difference to paramters and I can  measure this, but it is explainable and I usually know what is happening - but not always unless i look into it.

Any engineer or scientst who claims cables dont affect the myriad of parameters pertaining to conduction of a signal with in a system doesn't know thier subject very well....

There is no magic here, and the physics employed in the design of a ethernet patch leads are *very* well understood and have been  for many many years, and of course international standards were developed around this science to aid reliability and interoperability. Ethernet UTP patch leads are cheap - that was one of the points of them when they were developed... however RFI and common mode RF noise can be dealt with quite easily with other methods..

So the choice is you can apply a bit of know how and achieve a good outcome, or you can buy a product - possibly at a premium - that may have some know how applied by design or accidentally applied and achieve a similar outcome. 

Everyone has a choice depending on thier outlook, aptitude and budget. Its what makes the hobby fun - there are many ways of achieving similar results.

Cheers

Simon

The dealer in question was cagey for obvious reasons. But it's down to the punter to dismiss it out of hand or have a listen. 

Bits are bits. All cables sound the same. And so on. I've never auditioned equipment by reading the specification or understanding the theory of the design. Or bought a car without a test drive. Sometimes what is predicted to occur does. Sometimes not. I'm not pushing these leads as a breakthrough. I'm just saying that some people might hear a difference and like it. As I did.

BTW K, good to meet you both last week. Enjoy the Rush.

Hi Simon,

So, applying  "know how" allows you to know how a component will sound before you've heard it? I don't need to know how a CD player works to buy a good one, and I don't need to believe in magic either.

I'm not questioning your technical expertise or suggesting that it's ok to produce a product without understanding the science involved. I am questioning your advise that it's not worth paying much for an Ethernet cable without having heard a more expensive one. 

Keith

Hi Harry,

It was great to see you and Helen too. The Rush LP will be delivered to Diverse Vinyl on Thursday :-)

I suspect we'll meet again at the discrete regulator demo as and when it happens.

Keith

Hi Harry,

Jason said he hoped to do one (some?).

Keith

Sounds good. See you there

All the best

Keith to be honest I wouldn't pay much for an Ethernet lead (not for a home network) as it is not expense that necceassarily makes it work better, but then i again use other methods to reduce the effects of EMI leakage and common mode RFI to get my system sounding the way i like it, (and perhaps others wouldn't bother with that either)  but I totally respect you listening to leads and you buying want you  are comfortable with or what appears to make your system sound better. 

By your argument, how do you know an expensive lead is better than applying some cheap RFIcounter measures to a standard Cat 5e lead unless you have heard it? You see it's all about perspective and what you put your faith in.

Simon

Not wanting to add more fuel to the fire, but I was asked to try these Audioquest cables by my dealer a couple of months ago and was initially sceptical. However, after listening to the first 3 in the Audioquest range I did experience a progressive improvement in sound through the range. They didn't really affect the tone of the music, but there seemed more separation between instruments and voices. I have to admit I was surprised. I listened to the cables over a period of about a month.

I tested all cables by comparing a selection of WAV files on the HDX and on my NAS. Interestingly the ultimate winner was music sitting on the HDX, so the cables went back, as apart from 20-30 HD albums everything is played directly from the HDX. Unfortunately I did not have the foresight to try them against a normal cable with some chokes, but when my HDX's hard drive fills up or my collection of HD music grows, I will probably revisit my tests and try the chokes as well.

Rich

Before I bought the Audioquest cables I used cat 5e with chokes, after reading about Simon's posts on this forum. There was indeed a small but worthwhile improvement. I'm not using them at the moment, but a may try them on the SPDIF interconnect.

The Audioquests do provide more separation! As you say Rich. There is more space, clarity and control, but their main effect is to convey more music. 

To be clear, I didn't buy them because they are more expensive. I bought them because the improvement they provided was significant and more than justified the expense.

I hope this isn't a "fire", by the way. Unfortunately, this was always likely to be contentious. I do agree that expensive network cables are, on the face of it, a bit mad, but there you go :-)

Keith

Keith, glad you got it sorted.. Good luck on the spdif.. I have three chokes on that at present and for me it makes the ndac/555PS  sound awesome and natural with the NDX, but obviously your results may vary.

Simon

I'll give them a try on the SPDIF over the next few days. it's the only thing I haven't done from the thread on maximIsing the NDX. Your can't beat a free upgrade :-)

Cheers,

Keith

Hi Keith,

Just to reiterate what I said at the time - the NDS specs say (and have always said) that the unit has an upgrade path of adding *A* DAC, not the current Naim DAC. It's just a pain that we called our DAC simply "DAC" (there is no n-DAC or nDAC - it's just "DAC") and that did cause some confusion out there.

Cheers

Phil

How much?

Thank you. That comes out at approx £120. 

Can I ask who supplied yours please?

It's certainly a lot compared to a patch cable. But in the context of the whole system, or just the source components it's not outrageous. If it brings a benefit. Care to go into any more detail on this? I'd love to hear about it.

Acoustic Revive also do LAN cable: 1 metre will cost about 18,000 yen. Thanks!