The Wobbly Streamer

Fantastic Harry.

Can't wait to read your thoughts...let me guess...you love it!

Right now I do Dusty. Spent a couple of hours thrashing our presently loved system before the NDS arrived. The 555PS had to be powered down for about 20 minutes but everything else stayed on with the pre on mute.

First impressions are very favourable but I have to allow for a cold NDS and the 555PS resettling. The comments in your thread tended to ring true. It's actually quite difficult to describe. The bass has certainly picked up increased somewhat in detail (what! again? Where will it end?) And I can hear more going on all through the range. A mixture of better resolved and maybe a bit more detail coming through.

Not much point is rabbiting on at this early stage. First cliff notes FWIW is that this unit seems a bit special, sophisticated and refined yet not holding back - put me in mind of the CDS3. It sounds at this stage as if the nDAC/555PS was maybe trying a bit too hard. Singing its heart out but not hitting all the notes perfectly. Puffing itself up to sound like a heavyweight but failing to completely engage. The NDS is consummately engaging and easy to listen to. 

It is a class act, no doubt about it. But is it worth the extra? Will it change over the next few days? If so, in what direction? I have about a week (as it turns out) to find out. So no pressure and no rush. Plenty of Rush though.

I may be gone some time.

Yes, please post more. As an aspiring NDS owner I'm keen to hear as many opinions as possible before I take the plunge!

At present the situation is well defined. The NDS is a quality act. It's just so musical and easy to listen to. I've been trying to do a two column audit on present versus NDS but the music keeps getting in the way, or rather taking me away.

On more simple recordings there is what seems to be a more realistic timbre to voices and instrument bodies. On more complicated stuff I haven't go to this appraisal yet because I'm listening to the better defined musical lines and subtly which has only been apparent this evening. 

The reason I'm not pumping out high volumes of gush is because I've been here before and sometimes things change. What will it sound like tomorrow?

If I was impulsive I'd be on the phone first thing. But I will give it time and hope that things stay as they are or maybe even improve - although I don't know how they could. 

The NDS is seriously impressive. I've heard a pre production sample at the dealer and a nearly production sample at Naim. There is no substiture for getting one home. It has made a bigger difference than I anticipated.

Something hasn't been quite right with the system in my opinion. It's not bad - far from it, but I feel that something is slightly out of trim. My money was on the 500 and Naim are aware of this. But the 500 hasn't been powered down for a few weeks and the NDS has just "cured" it. The only things that got altered this afternoon was muting the 552 for twenty minutes and powering down the 555PS for the same interval. So if the sound drifts back towards slightly unfocused maybe the 500 is not the culprit? This could get complicated - here's hoping things stay as they are.

It is worth reiterating an earlier comment because I feel more strongly that I've hit on something. The DAC/555PS is mighty, but I think it's a bit too show and go. The NDS doesn't appear to be trying. It's just on the musical money. They both get to the end of an album with great skill and entertainment but the NDS seems like it found the trip less of an effort. Don't know if that makes any sense.

More tomorrow.

The DAC/555PS is mighty, but I think it's a bit too show and go. The NDS doesn't appear to be trying. It's just on the musical money. They both get to the end of an album with great skill and entertainment but the NDS seems like it found the trip less of an effort. Don't know if that makes any sense.

More tomorrow.

Exactly how I'm experiencing the old Quad ESL 57s, on  a Nait 5i-2 -with vanilla iTunes

No show, but huge involvement.

ATB fron George

It’s looking like a no brainer at this stage.

The bass has been tidied up considerably and plays more tunes than it ever did. The mid is more spacious and relaxed, but not in a laid back way. Highs have also changed for the better. Where the system could have a tendency to lean forward in the treble, it is now more upright, integrated, detailed (and what detail) and easy to listen to. It all sounds essentially “right”. Like music!

The degrees of change might be considered hair splitting but to us it’s clearer cut than that. There is stuff coming out which either wasn’t apparent or was more blurred and less separated.  But this is to focus on the more HiFi aspects of the performance which in addition to missing the point, accounts for a tiny percentage of the enjoyment that’s flowing around the lounge.

I have heard the 500 “magic” in a number of rooms and with a few sources. Where we were at two days ago was impressive indeed and way out in front of anything we had before or ever thought we would be fortunate enough to have at home. And yet….

Now it makes sense. I can only conclude that good as it was, the source was holding it back and the bottle neck has been widened.  I could quote more than a score of examples where things are now more detailed, clear and coherent but there’s no point. The NDS is a seriously good streamer. OK, maybe it’s twice as expensive as something else offering 99% of the performance – but what do I care? I have heard *my* future and it works.  It is just so easy to get on with. It doesn’t make you listen, it lets you hear. I don’t care about “reference” or comparative observations based on things I’ve never heard or numbers I don’t understand. I know what I like and I’m getting it in spades today.

Because there is no pressing need to box it up for a few days there’s no point in getting jumpy, what with the summer close down just around the corner. If they were collecting it tomorrow we’ve heard enough to order one. Happily we can run it through the week end, continue to cogitate and try to find something to criticise. Actually that’s quite easy. N-Stream isn’t exactly the sharpest tool on the box. Good enough to control the music but lacking in a few basics, and with a bloody annoying tendency to switch inputs on the 552 when going through the uPnP settings, such as when calling up iRadio. Obviously a setting on the NDX which needs to be adjusted. But I do very much welcome the volume control. A nice touch which works very nicely to boot.

I expect we’ll order one next week. I can’t see it not happening. I don’t think the performance is likely to cave in. I suppose it could get better still.

I will report.

Two days in and it's still rock solid. Pun intended. The sheer ease and comprehensiveness of musical communication is something that's hard to walk away from and impossible not to tap along to. Bass has stayed taunt and detailed, there is no blurring around the edges any more. I suppose we all listen in different ways. For me, if the bass is off it grates and distracts. Whereas at the higher frequencies there is no finger pointing, just a less than content feeling. And we're feeling very content indeed. It may not be the bass per se. All frequencies affect all other frequencies and single 555PS voicing of the NDS strikes a balance in our room and system which sounds natural, unforced, unconstrained and essentially correct. Your mileage may vary - as the saying goes.

For the first time, we feel that the capabilities of the downstream components are being more obviously exploited and their strengths played to. Everything has opened up. It's not a small change and as mentioned in an earlier post, the demonstrations we previously heard did not prepare us for just how good it sounds in situ. 

This is a bit special. To hear it is to understand.  Even at it's lofty price, it's so attractive and beguiling that the value aspect stomps all over the outlay. If you are waiting to hear one or intend to get around to it at some point you are not going to be disappointed. If streaming is your thing.

I would say if anything it has loosened up somewhat. But not in a slack way.

The big take home message in this house is the bass lucudity and detail which was not missing before but the NDS appears to have allowed the 500 to more clearly demonstrate its grip and reach. The sound has a transparent openness to it which gives an illusion of a wider and deeper stage - although this has not changed - the room is the same size as it was last week. The top end, as well as being unforced is more resolved - details have emerged, both in terms of what is being played and how it is being played. 

It feels so good to have yet more insight into technique and interplay. Again, not really missing before but the window is wider, or perhaps has thinner, more transparent glass. I could, and I suspect some will write about the resolution, detail, staging etc. at some length. In the end it comes down to something more fundamental. The sheer ease. The nDAC/555PS is a swaggering proponent of what is possible. But, comparatively (and of course subjectively) speaking, it is a tad too rounded in the bass with soft edging, somewhat puffed out in the mid, and tending to top forward - to the extent that it sounds fast and detailed whereas it is in fact just over egging it. I didn't mind this in the least. But now I have seen another way, dare I say it, the right way. The musical way. What has emerged from memory (unreliable I admit) is what I would describe as "500 magic". I can hear the sorts of things which endeared us when we first heard it but never quite seemed to land the right up in our lounge. It was close. and yet it somehow wasn't what we envisaged. The old source was holding the rest of the system back. You won't know this until you hear both.

All highly subjective. There is no substitute for your own ears. We have concluded our ruminating. We want the NDS like we want our next breath. Plan A is to persuade the dealer to let us buy the one we now have on the rack. That's how much we don't want it to go back. But I suspect other customers' needs will evoke Plan B - order one and wait patiently. Which is fair enough. I'm not inclined to put the DAC back in the stack. We'll 555PS the HDX.

Helen and I are now official residents of Allen's NDS Retirement Village. I suspect it's going to be a crowded place. I hope this has been of some use. However, don't believe my ears. Yours are just as good - and the NDS will definitely give them something to ponder on.

A fine series of posts, Harry. And you are using a non DR 555PS, correct?

The bass when you DR is going to send you. 

Hi Harry -

Just tell your dealer that possession is 9/10's, and I'm sure he'll relinquish the NDS!  

Great writeups, as usual.  You do have a talent for communicating your hi-fi experiences!  Am particularly appreciative of your honest comparisons to the DAC/555PS -- they are very helpful for me and other owners of that combo who dreaming about what to do next.

Am very happy for you and Helen, and am encouraged to hear that the NDS is living up to its advertising!

ATB.

Hook

Another great read Harry.

Thank you for taking the time to post.

Nathan

Thank you all. I appreciate the comments.

CP. Our 555PS is of the non DR variety. If the upgrade yields more lucidity in the lower registers we'll be happy bunnies. But if it pumps up the bass it will not be welcome. I have wondered about the DR conversion in the light of the present balance - it doesn't sound like it needs to be better. How many times have we said that?! I think a local event is being organised at some point and we'll be there. Or we might bring a DR's 555PS home for a couple of days.

Thanks Hook. Big fans of the DAC here with 555PS. It was supposed to be a CDS3 but the drive and detail retrieval were compelling. Still big fans of the CDS3 and with the NDS I think we've had our cake and eaten it. 

Thank you Nathan. Glad it was of some use.

Allen, I don't think I need to say more but I am looking forward to what I know will be informative and interesting reports from your direction. I might chip into them. You have been highly critical when warranted and I know there won't be any rose tinted observations coming out of your keyboard.

I am happy to report that we went with Plan A.

Took the nDAC to the shop and announced that we wouldn't be giving the NDS back....... if it was all right with them. Which it was. Result!

The sound is so nicely textured and balanced now that we're reluctant to go DR without an in depth home trial. When our turn in the upgrade time line arrives we will listen first.

If you can make out a clanking sound in the background, that's our drawbridge being rolled up.

Happy days.

Huh, and there I was thinking it was hatches being battened down.

Congratulations Harry!

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Thank you Frank.

It’s been a very enjoyable week and not without developments.

Getting the negatives out of the way first, whilst I can live with nStream and appreciate the volume control (when it works), its foibles and occasional idiosyncrasy can get on my nerves. Migrating from nServe it’s partly acclimatisation but there are a few things that grate and it feels generally clunky.  Yesterday evening, when jabbing buttons on the facia to bring sound out of what sounded like a broken unit (no worries, the uPnP was reinitiating but nStream was uninformative), I noticed that the display was slightly off the horizontal. It doesn’t overly bother me in as much as I will hardly ever look at it and it is off for most of the time, but I am surprised at this and it will need to be addressed at some point. I wonder if restarting the unit will do any good? I doubt it. The reason why I’m not inclined to switch it off or make a point of telling my dealer before our next routine chat (we haven’t paid for the NDS yet) is that the sound coming out of it is so enjoyable that this matter is peripheral to the point of being trivial – at least for now. Sometime in the winter our 555PS and 552PS DR slot will appear. They can straighten out the NDS display while they’re at it. In addition it will be as good an opportunity as any to break it all down and rebuild the stack for 2013.

So to more important things.  We had a touch of shyness one evening. This could have been me being tired (which I was - very), mains quality, ambient pressure or possibly a bedding in blip. Makes no difference because by the proceeding lunch time it was singing and soaring as usual.  The staging balance has changed. There is more depth and with it a slight bias to the left speaker (the operative word being slight). This is a well know room effect and easily cured. I could twist the balance control but for some reason (probably the conditioning of over twenty years of using minimalist toob amps) I still tend to tweak the position of the speakers. It’s silly I know. But again, it comes down to the musical enjoyment and I’m loving it so much that I just can’t be bothered to fiddle about. It’s not like you can mentally place the speakers in any case – they don’t appear to exist. So who cares if the stage is ever so slightly off to the left? I’ll get to it.

The depth perspective has increased the appreciation because instruments and voices are so pin pointed that you can practically hear around the back of them. It can be spine shivering because placement in space and the stop/start points are so real – or to be pedantic, realistically portrayed. The effect is to draw you in. And the more you listen the more you hear. But it’s not a party trick to amuse you, it is a deep insight which adds to enjoyment and appreciation. It’s not fair to shine a spotlight on any particular aspect of the performance because it’s the overall flow and realism which carries you along, as opposed to a succession of “wow!” moments – something which we’re all familiar with and are not in of themselves a bad thing.  But the NDS doesn’t play that game.

I have no option but to conclude (in the context of what we have now – it’s all relative) that the nDAC/555PS was holding the rest of the system back. The 552 and 802D could tend to be a bit sharp in the treble and forward on less than smooth recordings- wrong! The 500, with possibly the 802D joining in could be a bit growly and heavy in the bass and some recordings were just poorly resolved in any case – wrong!  All that was needed, as it transpires, was a source capable of digging it all out and playing all the notes from top to bottom with realism, convincing tonality and the separation necessary to better portray texture and space. You know when you have a balloon well inflated and you’re thinking “one more puff and I’ll burst it”? That’s how I would describe the nDAC/555PS. Puffed out and just a bit over stretched on the surface. It’s big, bold, very capable and enjoyable, but it’s gone a bit too far. In the time of the 252/300 and 552/300 it wasn’t a big deal. Or at least it didn’t seem so. The 552 maybe unbalanced it a bit – but brought so much more that it didn’t matter. The 500, whilst also bringing more, threw the limits into sharper relief. That’s all I can think of. A couple of weeks ago, and before that at the factory visit I was saying “it’s the best system I’ve ever had or dreamed I could have and I wouldn’t go back. I can’t go back. Yet something is niggling me”. I believe - relatively and subjectively – we had a source on full throttle which was driving like the wind but starting to clatter and overheat – a bit. I’m not trying to rubbish it. Honestly. It’s an excellent source (although I know the nDAC is not liked in some quarters for its relatively fast and forward presentation) but there’s a better one now for people like me who skipped the CDS3 (which I believe is now left well behind) and were not up for either the CD555 or jumping brands, for whatever reasons.

The status quo is very much sitting back and enjoying the performance.  But delights abound. The Yes Album (MFSL CD) is still a favourite but, particularly on Starship Trooper, the bass can be overpowering. It’s still loud, but it stands on its own and no longer swamps. I never knew there were so many notes!  Likewise at the beginning of And You And I, the thud thud thud thud, thud thud is now very obviously a kick drum with the bass directly in front of it, both playing note for note. I knew it was there. But now I can fully hear it. I’ve heard Herbie Flower’s account of how he overdubbed the upright bass with electric accompaniment in Walk On The Wild Side (and doubled his fees in the process) and at times in the track, particularly from the middle on, I could hear it. But now it’s there from the song’s first creaking note, clear as day. As is the obvious silent distance and separation of the bass from the kick drum. In front and slightly to the left.

I could go on. OK I will then. Big Rush fan here. Or at least of those albums which are not brick walled to the point of giving me a headache and the neighbours something to complain about. The texture now coming out of the bass –as well as all the notes, bends, slides etc. – is very life like. It’s got a thrum and ring to it not previously heard. But there’s more. Because instead of wishing Pert would tone the HF stuff down and stop showing off, it’s now blended and  I can hear differences in what he’s hitting and how, and how his playing – across the middle, down low but particularly at the top blends so well and sympathetically with the rhythm and melody simultaneously.  He's a clever bloke. And it's more apparent how the kit has been tuned. Everything has a tone and tautness as opposed to some bloke bashing skins.

Steve Hackett’s Please Don’t Touch was one of those bass orgasm moments.  Not the orgasmic delight of hearing those pedals vibrating through my floor, but a total loss of control at the zenith (or nadir possibly, being bass). The system just let go and it didn’t care anymore. A few seconds later after a mop of its brow it was back upright and composed.  I can now hear where the bass on the floor stops. It’s still big and dirty, but its limits can be heard as the edge of its notes, not by the point at which the room can seemingly no longer take it. Back to Yes. I have Fragile 24/96 but prefer the MFSL CD. It’s one of those albums where you can often hear the limits of the hardware – be it pushed to its limits or badly set up. It can grate. The HiRes grated at times uncomfortably. But no more. Sure you can hear the distortion and limiting, but it sounds like what it is. It’s honest. Like clicks on vinyl. Not the saw toothed, ear ringing shrieking which I was more than happy to run away from in my scramble for a more comfortable 16/44 rendition. There is some static circulating about just how 24bit it really is, but the CD was quite enjoyable where the 24/96 was not – for whatever reason. This is no longer the case.

I’m just pulling out a few examples.  It’s the overall tonality, texture, integration and lack of any obvious over emphasis (in our room) which just carries you away. It’s no longer a case of “listen to this, it sounds fantastic”. You just sit back and enjoy. I tend to be analytical at times, particularly when listening to new boxes.  I can’t help it and I know I shouldn’t put too much emphasis on trying to use my brain as an oscilloscope.  But how else am I going to know if my hard earned is worth the performance gain?  Well, to my own question I can now answer – when it’s right it’s right, and you’ll know it. The NDS/555PS is right. You don’t need to crunch numbers or take notes. It’s not x% “better” than something else. It’s just right. I can tell you about resolution, separation, lack of listening fatigue, transparency, grip and so on. It’s got all that and more – but above all, it’s just RIGHT. Did I mention that?

Allen's retirement village theme is bang on the money.

Thanks Harry,

Another great post. Isn't the bass articulation and newfound tunefulness of everything splendid? My experience has been with 555PS DR on SCD3 and my Customer's CD555 but I'm sure this whole thing is Naim's new gestalt. At the end of Rickie Lee Jone's "Beat Angels" from Traffic from Paradise, the song ends with a slowly repeated drum that sounds like a timpani maybe. I've always been able to hear the nice texture of the head vibrating but now I hear the note to which the head is tuned. I've listened to Clockwork Angels on the systems and it was pretty brilliant imo but I haven't gone back through the catalogue to see how all is rendered in the new era. Looking forward to it.

I've just received two HiCap DRs for demo at the shop an am putting them in various configurations and am absolutely in awe. Good times. Uh, great times!

Great post Harry, Thanks!

Another great read -- thank you Harry!

My dealer should be getting his NDS in another month or so, and I have asked to demo it before the end of the year.

Could the finish line really be this close?  Hope so!

ATB.

Hook

Connon,

Put the HiCap on a XS series box and let us know. ;-)

I still owe you one.

Mohit

keep on writing Harry. I really enjoy your posts .... your system is in a league way above mine, but people need "something to dream about" :-)

Iver, 

Yes his system is up there but if you add a HiCap2 DR to the second upgrade slot of your 152, you will have a great big taste of what Harry is going on about. 

Thank you all for your replies which are much appreciated.

Praise for the DR PSs appears universal and when specifics are mentioned it’s usually the clean and articulate bass. This treat is some months away but if it tightens up yet more I will be in for a good time.  For years I’ve fiddled with speakers and boundaries. It’s something we all have to experiment with and however you slice it, there will always be interaction. But the better the start place, hopefully the less messing about will be necessary if your speakers are basically a good room match.

What I did not realise until recently is that sometimes what appears to be a speaker/room issue might be to do with components further up the chain, because what I heard as a tendency for the bass to lose edge definition and occasionally overload turned out to be a lack of grip and clarity in the source, not the speaker/room interaction, or as it turns out, the amps throwing the towel in. I’m a bit of an old stick in the mud when it comes to source first, although I do acknowledge that different approaches work for different people.  More recently I’ve tended to include the pre in my definition of source. More recently still, I’ve wondered if overall balance maybe had more of a role to play.  There is no correct universal answer, but my shift in thinking was obviously along the lines of validating (in my head) my reasons for ending up with what by my historic terms of reference is a source last mullet.

It is posited that all this source first dogma is outmoded and now only applies to turntables. Personally I disagree, despite my more recent period of transient ambivalence. If the NDS proves anything to me, it is that what comes out of the DAC is worth much more than anything downstream and the “bits is bits so it doesn’t matter unless you’re mad” proposition  can go in the same category as “all TTs/amps/speakers sound the same”.  Why this rambling, highly subjective drone from my keyboard? Because I believe that with the NDS, and by extension probably the NDX from limited but enjoyable listening, you can still use the streaming paradigm as a source first system approach and everybody is likely to benefit, not just some of us who have been lucky enough to live and earn long enough to buy the higher tier stuff – or who have more money than sense – take your pick.

If I was starting from scratch I would aim for the NDS and the amps and speakers would take care of themselves. I wouldn’t try to slice the budget up evenly. What my ears tell me we have here is an analogous situation to choosing between a CDX2 (NDX) and a CDS3 (NDS) although I believe that the performance of each is well ahead of the CPDs I use for the analogy. If that makes any sense?  I don’t think we’ve ever had it so good in terms of basic musical communication and breadth of choice. Mix in the availability of some killer CDPs and the option of external DAC or all in one units and tell me what’s not to like? My view is inevitably Naim centric but over the fence the market is burgeoning – good times. And the technology is in its infancy. Well, that’s not really the case but I suppose it’s true in the context of premium HiFi. So there’s more to come. I say bring it on. Ironic isn't it that that we've gone through some interesting (and not so long ago undreamed of) doors in a period that coincides with a significant loss of source material quality - AKA recordings being brick walled to shit. Happily for me I'm old enough to have lots of material that falls outside this shameful era.

Have we reached the finish line? Well, we’ve reached *a* finish line. It’s one I’m happy to stop at but never say never. Time was there was a CDS3 retirement village which existed securely and contentedly for some years until the CD555 and 555PS kicked the door in. I think the NDS is going to do it for a good few years. What comes after may or may not interest me, the point is that (for me personally) I am sitting in a place of exquisite musical enjoyment and there is no pressing or niggling need for me to ponder on what might come next – past the DR upgrade.