MTB - 26" v 29"??

If you ride bridle paths and the like, you should seriously consider a 'cross bike. You don't really need front suspension and definitely don't need rear suspension. Suspension adds weight and subtracts "zing". Cross bikes are far more capable off road than many realize. On gravel paths, even a road bike will be a better ride than a mountain bike. Given the riding you do, a full suspension MTB would be the very worst choice, IMO.

I would always go for hard tail unless you actually need it, and from you description you do not. Buy a good spec HT frame and fork and it will last you ages, spend the same on FS and I guarantee you will be reaching for the upgrades quickly.

I am a bit of a cynic re  29ers , basically assuming the vogue is driven as much by the need to market a whole new group of bikes as real benefits. This is a bit unfair but the advantages seem ill-defined to me. I have ridden one, albeit briefly.

26 inch = lighter frames, lighter wheels, more agility, less cost

29 inch = less rolling resistance, different stance, possibly better stability.

If I wanted a bike more for touring and big distances on non technical tracks I might go for a 29er for comfort (or just a hybrid/cross actually). If I wanted a more versatile bike, and a bike suited for more lumpy stuff I would go for a 26 and spec it well.

For me buying a bike that is significantly heavier will always take some justifying.

Cotic make nice frames but the Soul is designed for a long travel front fork. I cannot see you that you need this.  Long travel HT 's are another fashion, once again carying the extra weight is pointless if you are not riding that sort of stuff, and the frames are beefed up to cope with the extra stresses correspondingly. I would look for a frame designed to work with 100 or 120mm.

I ride less technical MTB trails generally now, and do a bit of touring on that bike too. My Orange r8 is light and plenty zingy 853 and runs a short fork. Discontinued frame now but similar exist from other companies (Pace do a very nice one I think) and Orange sometimes sell off ex-demo bikes too.

I actually run mine with a rigid fork quite a lot!

I have also been down the FS route in the past by the way, and ridden a 29er test bike.

Hope that helps.

Bruce

Just checked, Pace still do the frame, called RC104, and Orange have a complete ex demo R8 17inch still for sale

Jonathan,

Try looking at www.on-one.co.uk bikes. I have not ridden their bikes but anybody that has offered a fixed wheel MTB is worth a look.

I would agree with Winky on this one. I have ridden a rigid hybrid around the Forrest of Dean on tracks similar to the ones you describe and it was fine. In fact it was better than fine, it was great. The stiffness of the bike was better than the sog of springs.

George is also riding similar trails, see his Carlton thread, and runs a rigid with North Road bars.

Suspension is great if you want to hoon about in the dirt or scream downhill like your hair is on fire, but for riding as you want with the responsiveness you are looking for does not need it.

Jono

Even if the path is not really smooth, most are no worse than many modern tarmac roads!

Personally I always feel like the back is broken on cycles with suspension. A good steel frame has enough spring to soak up roughness without loosing responsiveness. And I hate a cycle where some of the energy results in the cycle flexing the suspension with the power going down through the pedals, and that seems to be a characteristic of suspensions systems that I have come across. 

The North Road Bar is a semi drop style that is suitable for relaxed riding or fast progress on the road. In fact you can tuck in "Obree-style" with it and it is just as nice as the drop bar of the modern type, and much more comfortable in less smooth conditions. I find the old bar is more usable! It is not going to be adopted by the best riders of road bikes! 

Now I have found a way to work [on my daily commute] that does not involve roads at all, I was greatly surprised how nice a steel framed old English road cycle is on paths. I had been considering something heavier than the Carlton to cope, but if anything the paths show some characteristic strengths in the old cycle that the road does not bring out. 

As for 29 inch wheels, I wonder why? 700c can be fitted with many types and widths of tyres, whilst 26 inches and 29 are much more limited in choice. For the winter, I'll use Marathon tyres [Schwalbe] instead of road tyres.

ATB from George

Thanks guys, much appreciate your informed views and having digested them you have confirmed my feeling that full sus is not necessary for me.  I'm sorry that Orange seem to have reduced their steel hardtail range - the old P7 Pro was a bike I seriously considered when I bought the Scott but I couldn't justify the cost at the time -perhaps a mistake in hindsight.  The Pace machines look gorgeous and run 100-130mm forks whereas the Cotic Soul is 100-140mm although optimal at 120mm so not much different in terms of fork length.   I found Bruce's comments on 29 v 26 very informative and helpful.

One of my favourite routes is very rocky indeed in places and I have ridden it on my tourer on occasion but it was a treacherous and certainly a real boneshaker on that so I think I would like to gets something with front suspension at least.  There's a rather technical looking purpose built MTB area about 2 miles from my house so I keep planning to go and have a little bash on that although having dislocated my shoulder about ten years ago while mountain biking I am inclined to be rather more careful nowadays...

Having studied the forums on Singletrackworld I gather after sales service can be a bit hit and miss with Pace whereas Cotic seem to be universally hailed in this regard.  I want to keep the bike as British as possible so both are serious contenders as are On One - such a shame they don't make their frames in the UK but Taiwan.   Shame it's so hard to actually test ride any of these options in the South of England before you buy - you pretty much have to buy it on trust!  I find it rather sad that if I wanted to buy a Trek/Scott/Specialized etc there are any number of dealers for these huge American brands near my home but try and buy a British bike in a British shop and you can't even see one - apart from occasionally Orange.  The Brit press don't seem to support Brit bikes either - I've bought four MTB mags this month and they're full of French, American, German and Taiwanese built offerings - but no Brit ones - it's rather sad and much worse than the hi-fi industry in this regard.  I wouldn't mind if the British didn't build great bikes, but they do - Mercian, Cotic, Roberts, On One, Raleigh, Dawes, Pace, Pashley etc etc - but when did you last see any of them get a review??  It's the same with accessories - the best means of carrying waterproofs, lunch etc on my MTB is my Carradice Nelson longflap saddlebag - it's tough as old nails, handmade in Nelson Lancashire and incredibly light and capacious.  Best of all with a Brooks saddle on both my tourer and MTB I can switch it over in seconds and it doesn't need a mount because the Brooks saddles have saddlebag loops.  The saddlebag doesn't make my back sweaty like a rucsack and gives me a lower center of gravity and hence better balance but I've never seen an MTB mag advocate one and it's the most rugged luggage in the world..

Anyway, climbing off the soapbox now!

Thanks guys - much to consider,

Jonathan

Jonathan

Points taken re UK 'brands' but all the bike tubing is made elsewhere, and most frames are welded outside the UK even on those brands you might think of as British (ie Orange). If you really want something as British as you can make it you may be talking a custom frame builder.

As with so many things today actually choosing on provenance is virtually meaningless. Our Honda car is assembled in Swindon, is that a British car?

To support the british bike industry your best bet is to support your local bike shop I think. You could also buy Hope bits and pieces, made just down the road from me but your tyres, groupset etc are all going to be foreign.

My local bike shop raves about Ragley frames, another Halifax based company selling solid hardtails at good prices. I note your comments re Pace and after-sales I actually think that reputation stems from their original suspension fork series which was great in theory but poor in realisation. They don't make them any more. Not much to go wrong with a hardtail either.

Have fun choosing

Bruce

Hi Jonathan, as an ex-rugby player I sympathise but can only echo the comments on HT vs. FS. I have a FS bike gathering dust because my Orange R8 is more versatile. Although they are not made any more, you can still pick up Orange R8 frames from a number of bike shops at roughly half original price. If you are on the hefty side, then I wouldn't necessarily recommend a cross bike as part of the suspension comes from running the tires at a lower pressure which increases the risk of pinch flats as rider weight increases. They are tremendous fun though and I ride several gravel paths on road bikes - it just took a little while to find the right tire, inner tube and pressure combinations, there's nothing like changing tubes in the middle of nowhere to accelerate the learning process.

For the moment 26" is a better option as it is rare to find LBS stocking a range of 29" tires and tubes. Although you can generally source things cheaper online, unless you can build and maintain the bike yourself it is good to develop a good relationship with your LBS.

Raleigh is unfortunately no longer a UK company, hasn't been for a while. As Bruce says, about the only way to guarantee British is with a custom build.

Carradice make great bags but I think the reason you don't see them reviewed in MTB mags is because they don't allow inclusion of a hydration pack that you can use whilst still pedalling. MTB riders tend to prefer backpacks for some reason, probably because a rack system doesn't lend itself to bike carrying when going up narrow, steep trails. You are much more likely to see them reviewed as part of an audax kit or general recreational touring.

The "29er" standard is, in fact 700c. It was just that the 'mericans don't get the metric system, so they had to rename it. Tyres are often interchangeable, but you have to watch frame clearance and rim widths.

Dear Winki,

I learn something everyday!

In the old days there were 26" wheels and 27", and then came the 700c, which is actually - I believe a tiny fraction smaller in rim diameter than the 27 inch. I assumed that the "29er" was some super-sized wheel, that would require somewhat different frame geometry than the 700c or 27" that in reality can be substituted without difficulty on many classic older English frames without spoiling anything. 

My Carlton is actually very close coupled for 700c and would not take a 27" but many cycles that originally had 27" wheel are refitted with 700c wheels without even needing new brakes as there is enough adjustment on the position of the brake pads. Indeed it is a good idea if one has a close coupled 27" style frame and want to fit mudguards. 

Well, the "29er" is the same as a 700c, or more or less! A suprise indeed! I once had a MTB that had 700c wheels and no suspension at all. A nice "Eagle Of Brigg" cycle that had only one problem. It was relatively heavy, and, with nobbly tyres, not good for a long road trip, but it was a good bike that I saw two complete sets of cogs [and chains] off with and two BBs. As well as a new rear wheel. I liked that cycle very much and had it for more than ten years before the Carlton. I paid £15 for it from a work colleague, and as suggested, rebuilt it twice,. The the parts were rather ordinary, so could not be expected to last like high quality.

When I can lay my hands on them I'll post photos in the Carlton thread. I also have photos of my first bike - a child's Raleigh given me in the mid-1960s as my first bike - which was also a great favourite of mine. The two cycles that no photos seem to exist of was my original [1974-1989] Elswick Hopper [also made in Brigg] that did a huge amount of work, and for years I rode with a loose front spindle! I used to take the dog for a run - for miles each day - on that with a three metre chain on main roads. You could not do that today! And Dawes Hybrid that I could not get on with - 1989-1992. Then came the Eagle.

Best wishes from George

I wanna share my Saturday morning story, after nearly two years I pumped up the tires on my Raleigh 531c luxe, Shimano 105 gruppo with downtube shifters (click-index on the rear-cassette), Cinelli bars and stem and Selle Italia saddle.  The saddle has a gel patch but is not as comfy as the Turbo or even the lovely San Marco Royal.  It's a 1988 frame, hand-made by  Raleigh's special products division, the guys who made the pro race team bikes in Nottingham.

After a couple of kilometers my hands and lower arms started to ache, as well as a sore behind !  I decided that I had gone soft and needed front suspension like that on my Cannondale F2000.  But when I pumped up the tires on the 'dale I saw that the Headshok front suspension was out of air and possibly oil.  So I booked her in for a full service this week.

I remember the Raleigh would accelerate like a sportscar, but not anymore, I guess the extra 50 lbs I carry now makes a huge difference !

So I'll focus on my 'dale now, put some slicks on it and be prepared to be laughed at due to my lack of disc brakes, but enjoy the Shimano XT/XTR gruppo.  Let's see if my renewed interest can help lose some of those extra pounds !

Cheers ....

Shoot,

Good to read of your cycling exploits - I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the Raleigh though - those SBDU frames are works of English art - you'll realise how special they are if you read this:  http://www.classiclightweights...h-sbdu-builders.html

I have a Raleigh Royal 531 tourer which I bought new in 1985.  It's the best riding bicycle I have ever had the pleasure to ride and that was built at the lightweight unit which as the article states is a level down from the SBDU.  You could spend £4000 today on a bike and you'd be getting a mass produced Taiwanese frame crammed with japanese/Taiwanese components.  By contrast your Raleigh was built in England by one craftsman with a brazing torch in his hand and a lifetime of passion and experience.  

I'm spending £2k this month on a Cotic Soul 853 custom build in an attempt to find what Raleigh sold me for £200 in 1985 off the peg.  The Scott alu hardtail I bought for £700 in 1999 is a pile of garbage in terms of ride and finish compared to that Raleigh.  Worth noting that even the Reynolds 853 Soul I am buying has a Taiwan built frame based on British Reynolds 853 tubes - I only hope it comes close to 25 year old 531...

Anyway I am finalising the build on the Cotic as below with as much UK bult stuff as possible:

Cotic Soul 853 Frame Large, orange, wrap graphic, blue Hope seatpin (UK tubes, UK design, made in Taiwan)

Hope Hoops blue Pro2 Evo hubs (UK), black Mavic EX719 front (France)       

Hope Hoops blue Pro2 Evo hubs (UK), black Mavic EX719 rear (France)         

Hope X2 front brake with braded hoses (UK)                    

Hope X2 rear brake with braded hoses (UK)                    

Front and rear Hope 183mm floating blue rotors (UK)         

Rockshox Reba RL white (originally made in USA, now Taiwan)          

Continental Race King Tyres or Maxxis TBA                    

Shimano SLX groupset 10 speed 2012  –includes bot bracket, chainring 24/32/42, cassette 11-32, chain, M661 front mech, shadow rear mech, gear levers (Far East manufactured)

Easton EA70 seatpost (USA?)

Easton EA70 riser bars (USA?)                    

Hope blue anodised stem (UK)         

Hope Headset – tapered (UK)          

DMR Vault pedals blue with silver or orange pins (UK)          

Superstar Excel Custom black grips with orange locks (or Token grips with blue lock-ons)          

Brooks Conquest MTB saddle (UK) - existing saddle

Carradice Nelson longflap saddlebag (UK) - existing luggage

Jonathan

I agree with Jonathan. Issues of comfort are more likely to be related to your position on the bike than a lack of suspension. A sore bum is a just symptom of not riding enough. That quickly improves with some miles in a saddle, provided your position is OK. I'd get your position checked by someone who knows (local bike shop?) and persevere with the road bike for a bit.

Jonathan

Post a pic of your bike when it is up and running. Looks like you've tied down all the details!

Bruce

Will do Bruce - just agitating over pedal colour!

The shop reckon it will take about a week to get the parts in and build but not sure how long cyclescheme will take to produce the voucher.

Will keep you posted!

Jon

On my MTB I generally have everything the same colour. A unique blend of Yorshire mud and cowshit!

Are we talking flats or clipped by the way? After years of Crank Bros Eggbeaters I converted to Time last year; far, far more reliable/durable and just as nice to use. No colour options though!

Bruce

Bruce,

Going for DMR Vault flat pedals - the thought of being clipped in while riding scares me, but then I'm probably not a good enough rider!  I do use toe clips and straps on the tourer though.

You're right about the mud, the whole thing will no doubt end up covered in it! 

Jonathan

I promise once you have used clips you will never, ever, ever, go back.

You will be a better rider with clips. Better pedal stroke, more control and balance too. So easy to use. Unclipping becomes totally automatic. Most people fall off once when they 'forget' and then the movement becomes second nature. SPD's are cheap and easy to start with. Time ATACS excellent. You do need a suitable shoe of course.

Toeclips and straps far more dangerous in my opinion!

My  wife is an utter technophobe and refused to try them for years. It took two rides and she was converted.

Bruce

Cycling nostalgia!  Just bought this excellent and recently released book on Raleigh, its history and products:  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pro..._details_o02_s00_i00 and what a wonderful read it is.  There's a lot of information on the Specialist Bicycle Development Unit, Carlton and the historic development of the bicycle in which Raleigh of course played an immense role.

I think it's the most interesting book I have read on cycling and I strongly recommend it to anyone into cycling.

Interesting to note your comments on pedals Bruce - I have already ordered flats but might think about going clipless on my tourer at some point in the future though.

Just had a call from the shop and the frame and some of the Hope bits are in so I'm popping in tomorrow for a peek!  My first custom build bike and Owens Cycles in Petersfield are doing a great job so far and seem as enthused as I am about the whole project which is nice.  I think it makes a welcome change from off the peg machines they normally sell hence their interest.  Funny really but after nearly 40 years in the saddle I'm really building a dream here and they've offered to take lots of photos of the build process which will be fun to keep.

I think I had better take some photos of the finished article before I get it muddy because it isn't going to stay clean for long!

Jonathan

Sounds great. It is so nice to make something that is going to be individual, and clearly going to be well used too. I bet it is looking spot on, and thanks for buying from Hope who build bits not many miles from where I live. The owners are known as pretty good guys and good employers.

I've built up one custom bike some years ago and am actually doing the same again just now, although the frame is several months from delivery but I am beginning to obsess over details. When it arrives I think it will deserve a thread of its own.

Bruce

Bruce,

I definitely look forward to reading more about what you're building - the decision to buy from Hope was an easy one - I'm very keen indeed to support British manufacturing where possible and indeed the bike will also carry my Carradice Nelson Longflap saddlebag (another superb Lancashire based company).  I had no idea you lived up there, I was born in Southport although I always cursed the miles of featureless cabbage fields I was thus forced to cycle around in the local area in my youth.  Lancashire only gets scenic further inland and the mighty Parbold Hill always stood in my way (but was traversed on many occasions!)

Interesting but the bike shop told me the other day when I was discussing Hope that their sales - especially in export markets were soaring according to bikebiz the trade magazine.

Jonathan

I live only a few miles away from the Hope factory but (and this is crucial) still inside North Yorkshire!

I have great cycling on my doorstep, the Dales and especially the Forest of Bowland which is hilly and scenic but has incredibly little traffic.

I think Hope gave done very well with their complete wheelsets. The hubs have always been good but nowadays the bike shop says few people want to come in and have a custom built wheel made up from individually selected components. Hope are now selling factory built wheelsets, albeit some with rims/spokes from people like DTSwiss etc and people can buy these off the shelf.

My new build is going to be Italian mostly, thinking about it I'm not sure it will have a single component from the UK. I am using a local wheelbuilder though. Going to be beautiful mind you!

Bruce

Thanks for the comment Jonathan and Winki.

After a couple more rides, I'm beginning to appreciate the Raleigh.  That bike isn't going anywhere, especially when the bike shop told me my headshok front suspension may be pooched.

They took the fork off for me and I'm sending to Toronto to a more experienced repairman.  I won't be buying such non-standard spec'd bike anytime soon.

When I was there however, I was shown a Kona 'Jake the Snake' cyclo-cross bike.  Wow !  Not as responsive as my Raleigh but it is tough enough for the pothole riddled roads up here in Northern Ontario.  Spec'd with Shimano 105 and Ultegra, 1" tires and smooth.  It has an Alu frame with CF forks.  The price was awesome too, only $1,400.  This bike will likely become my daily go-to, then the Raleigh for dry summer evenings, and the 'dale for the rough stuff.

Next issue will be choosing a saddle and pedals.  Which clipless pedals are the ones to get these days ?  Shimano or Time ?  which ones allow the most side to side movement ?  I have the first generation Time ATACs on my Cannondale and love them.  Not sure what today's equivalent is ??

Thanks,

S6x7

Lovely pics, the colour scheme looks so right on a bike with such slender tubes.

Clipless pedals are a fairly personal choice. Shimano SPD's came in variety of flavours and prices, and the spring tension is usualy adjustable. they do one-died version too if you want flats occasionally.

I've always preferred Crank Bros Eggbeaters and lately Time ATACs because both designs are brilliant at not getting clogged with mud etc. The Crank Bros do wear fast and need regular bearing service, I also had a pair snap on me so last year switched to Time and won't go back. They allow a little lateral float (which is more rotation than side to side movement on any pedal system) and I just like the engagement feel. They also seem tough.

Bruce

Jonathan

I'm no expert but so glad to have found your thread. I'm 6'8" and 110kg so definitely in the 2nd row. I just don't feel right on a MTB with 26" wheels. I have a Cannondale Saeco 66cm for the road and a Gary Fisher Zebrano hybrid with 700x35 (I think is the width) tyres but the tyres didn't really cut it (literally) on a recent holiday on cycle route 1 in Northumberland. There isn't really room on my frame for anything knobbly so I've been looking at this Voodoo Hoodoo. If you're not too snotty about buying from Halfords, it looks a bloody good deal to me for £500 but I'd welcome views from the massive:

http://www.halfords.com/webapp...-1_categoryId_165499

Good thread

Mick

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/g...odoo-hoodoo-12-46194

Of interest!

Bruce