Lance Armstrong

Don't fool yourself, at that level everyone is doping, certainly those who are serious contenders to win tours, titles, etc. It is physically not possible for a 'clean' human being to put in the kind of performances you are seeing every day over the course of the Tour de France. Same with the Olympics. It's just a big show, everyone knows it's happening but there is too much money involved for people to seriously wanting to eradicate doping. And in many cases medical science has not yet caught up to prove the methods or substances being used, i.e. constantly playing catch up.

AFAIK the USADA doesn't run the T De F so cannot take Lance's titles away.

This could also be another of example of the USA thinking it owns and runs everything eg the internet.

Armstrong is many things, but he has never appeared a fool. I find his decision bizarre. It will convince many that he is guilty, and I cannot see that it will prevent the USADA evidence coming to light anyway. I guess he did not trust the to give him a fair hearing, and he may be right about that.

In the end you are either in the 'no smoke without fire' camp or the 'never had a positive test' camp and I doubt many people change their minds on him now.

I don't believe everyone at the top level of cycling is now doping. Performance levels have actually dropped from the bad old days (as in some other sports too). Testing is clearly not infallible but more thorough, and the biometric passport system is another asset. I think the culture has changed too.

Bruce

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Well said Bruce. This years results / times in The Tour reinforces your point about more effective drug testing and a cleaner sport. Team Sky are leading the way Dave Brailsford's philosophy of small % gains in bikes, clothing, training,etc prove that The Tour can be won clean. IMO Wiggo will never be in the position that Lance now finds himself in today, which is very sad for the sport of professional cycling which ever side you are on regarding Lance.

Regards Graham.

I just read a list in the newspaper of who would be awarded the TdF wins if Armstrong was deleted. It gets quite tough to find a candidate who is not either a proven doper or heavily implicated in the top 5 some years.... 

That of course fits the 'everyone was doing it so how could he have beaten them otherwise' argument!

Bruce

The whole doping culture is what stopped me having an interest in the top end of cycling in the old days.

I hope Wiggins really is the trail blazer for a properly sporting approach. 

There was a truly fascinating programme called "More or Less" on Radio Four, which examined the performance of cyclists in the Tour, and showed "statistically" the reduced performance of the latest crop of top cyclists to a level that could be reproduced in the laboratory as being "possible."

Previously the type of performance being achieved could not be shown in the laboratory ... quite probably because it excluded "enhancement" with doping ...

ATB from George

Armstrong has good lawyers and with the position he's in, if he challenges the US ADA they will bring out evidence.

If he doesn't challenge them there will still be a doubt.  Some will believe he admitted guilt, some will still support him.

Interesting that the Americans are stripping him of titles from another organization (UCI) !

For the record, I believe that all of those greats were on something.  What about Big Mig ?  When he miraculously turned from Pedro Delgado's domestique to multi-tour-winning mega star ?

If Armstrong was low key like Indurain he might have been left alone, but he's too high profile.

I have always thought that Lance was an example of "BLTC", in one form or another.

As for the American organization stripping him of titles awarded by another, it's just another event in the ongoing continuum of American (or better, USA) arrogance...just look at the FBAR laws.

The thought i had when i saw the us were stripping him of his titles was.

Can all his US and other big money sponsors that have paid him millions over the years now take him to court and ask for there money back?

It could open another very large can of worms.

Stu.

Actually, I doubt that, because irrespective of his current status, at the time of the contract he was who and what he was, and his image, although now tainted, helped them to sell their product.  They would be hard pressed to prove "damages" on retroactive endorsements.

It's a risk that you take when taking on a celebrity endorsement - all you have is the clause that allows you to terminate the contract immediately for behavior that is detrimental to the endorsement relationship.  (Think Elin playing golf with Tiger's head.)

I am pretty sure Lance's past earnings are safe - but he better have saved up because his future earnings are going to be a little less lucrative than they have been.

UCI are considering stripping the TdF titles (and are the only ones who can). They are pressured into doing so as they don't want to be seen top be against the efforts of WADA and USDA. But they also have a vested interest in the sport itself, of course. They will take the course of action they see as least damaging to that.

If stripped by the UCI, the prize-money would be refunded. Not chicken-feed, but only of the fraction of the total $$ at stake. Any sponsors' money settlement is between Mr Armstrong and those sponsors. Possibly to be settled in a civil suit. Likely a deal reached behind closed doors however, as all parties (Armstrong, Livestrong and sponsors) would be damaged by a public slagging match. Armstrong has an advantage by way of the charitable connection. He can take some sort of high ground, and sponsors would presumably be reluctant to be seen as damaging Live-strong cancer charity.

If you look at Ricco and Rasmussen for example, neither had any positive charity connection. They were both as unpopular as Armstrong in public eyes, but because there was no real downside to doing so, sponsors dropped them immediately and without fuss. I have no idea whether sponsors went after money illegitimately obtained. Probably not, though as they would just want to sever all connections.

Tyler's book will be out soon. It will be interesting to see if other witnesses go public in some way.

I wonder who will be given the wins if he is stripped of his titles? In most cases the podium was taken up by people who have been associated with dubious practises.

Interesting that Bjarne Riis is still credited with the 96 win (I think he was stripped briefly of the title) despite admitting doping very publicly.

In my view most of the titles of the 90's and 00's  are tainted, and probably a few before this as well (EPO was rumoured to have being used since about 1987) although I think the tide may well be changing now. 

Winky - that's true about the prize $, which I hadn't thought of in light of the prior post about sponsorship & endorsement money.  But I think his previously earned endorsement compensation is safe, for the reasons I stated.

And EPO is potentially carcinogenic (hence its inclusion in the FDA REMS program), so one has to wonder if that played into Armstrong's condition.  I think the old "take a pint, let me train at high altitude, & give me back my pint" (blood doping) is a safer approach...albeit not ethical either.

is this an inevitable result of the unreasonably high expectations of the public and corporations ?  Doping has to occur to create the heroes and champions so the organizers get their cut from tv and sponsors ...

Dr Mark

I have recently read Jeremy Whittle's book Bad Blood about drug taking in cycling. He said he interviewed Lance when he recovering from cancer and asked if there were any factors that might have been contributary factors in his contracting cancer. Lance went off on one until Jeremy explained he was asking about family history.

I too have wondered if his cancer was due to drug taking.

And I did not mean to infer that blood doping is not without medical risk - anything that increases the hematocrit to that level can lead to stroke or clot formation due to the increased viscosity of the blood.  But EPO does all that and more (in terms of negative side effects.)

So Armstrong is guilty again until he chooses to prove himself, at great cost again, innocent again?

Who cares? He was a cocky little man, with zero charisma ...

Bradley Wiggins, on the other hand, seems a much more sympathetic personality. Even possible to think he might be rather nice in reality ...

ATB from Goorge

That's my take on things too.  Probably a good PR move on his part that only came about once he lost in his attempt to block USADA's case.  Somehow I don't think USADA would have been so persistent on this if they didn't think they could make it stick.  

This way there will always be some doubt, and he can claim a small piece of moral high ground. 

Well you seem to in a negative way. I care because in the normal world innocent until proven guilty is how it is.

One could as easily say Wiggins is a doper who has not been caught - but at least he would be a more charismatic cheat.

Dear Derry,

The Lance Armstrong thing has been going on for years. Far more attention has been paid to its significance than is justified in my view. So I stop caring.

But you are quite right. The man is innocent until proven guilty at least in a European/British sensibility.

ATB from George

Lance will get by just fine with or without our sympathy or criticism. An extremely driven individual of possibly questionable ethics.

On a more relevant note, is anyone following the Vuelta?

Did Lance cheat? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. I still think he was one of the most gifted riders in the history of cycling. For me, he was a joy to watch, as was Merckx, the Badger, and many others.

Dave

Yes, but I'm a stage or two behind on the highlights so don't spoil it.

Any thoughts on the ethics of the crash the other day in the wind? Valverde have a a case for the Peleton waiting do you think?

Valverede of course is a proven doper so moral high ground may not be his best argument.

I can't wait for it to get to the Picos Mts. We have walked and driven around that area on several visits, including the Lagos De Covaonga. Fantastic scenery and landscape, but I just quake at the thought of cycling up to them!.

Bruce