Has the quality dropped?

No, not at all.

If you do a comparison of olive or chrome kit from yesteryear with its contemporaries, the materials used today seem far better to me. Naim seem able to pull of the trick of making kit that is built like a tank and yet aesthetically pleasing.

Regading the processes that go into making the units, well, production engineering methods are in a constant cycle of improvement and I see no reason why Naim should not be part of that trend.

So,IMHO, quality has not gone down but, and this may be the cause of your observation, the products are far more complicated than before and thus there is simply more to go wrong.

Atb

Ray

People do not have issues with legacy kit such as amps and speakers. Problems are occurring where a computer is involved. Typically this is an error between keyboard and chair or the use of BT homehubs. It cannot really be related to Naim.

Gary, do you mean the Virgin Super hub which seems to cause regular grief on this forum? The BT ones (certainly the latest business hub ones) have no problems here.. And I see them used all over the place in commercial setups including Data Centres as out of band remote management access for certain CPE). What problems do you have?

I agree to the points, I think the quality of Naim  equipment is good, certainly IME.

Howeversome of the newer recorded music replay systems (Streaming, HD playback etc) are 'open' which means there are many options and variations to the part of the solution that is the consumer's responsibility.. These is where there appear many queries.. As there is usually no one way of doing things.. And when unexpected things happen and you don't have an understanding other than at a superficial box level (and there is nothing wrong with that all) then this forum is a good place for advice.

Simon

You also need to consider the other side of the coin. Five to ten years ago far fewer people had internet connections and were regular users of forums. There may be no change in quality just more awareness / communication of the problems that are in place.

The only way to know if there are more quality problems is to find out how much gear goes back to Naim for service repairs. Personally I have never had a fault with any of my Naim hear ´in the last 15 years. Of course after typing this something will attack the firmware in my ns01 and I will have to send it back to UK.

Claus

I would not think the quality of the Naim equipment has dropped.

Probably just the opposite. Quality control, engineering and service have built the company to its present level.

They are, though, having to move forward in terms of software and streaming products which provoke the discussions. Naim's quality of build is not in question.

They receive a lot of criticism on the software side (and I'm one of the worst knockers) but this is a very new area and things move forward fast.

Let's be fair - even Microsoft with all their resources found themselves totally looking behind the times on mobile phones.

And who knows - it could happen to Apple yet.

But the basics of Naim's pre-amps, amps, speakers and the time that goes into building them still guarantees quality.

I don't think there are any quality issues with Naim equipment. The issues that a most hotly discussed at the moment are related to the new streaming equipment and associated software. Like Simon says and I completely agree with him, there are a multitude of ways that these systems/boxes can be used and setup in the consumer environment.

I for one still love Naim systems but have not committed to their streaming products. 

So let's all just stick to playing our gorgeous CD's and lovely vinyl............

+1 

Most of the problems seem to be with streamers - the DAC, amps and speakers seem pretty solid 

In fairness my UQ works faultless though it has never been upgraded 

Originally Posted by Jon Myles:

+1 

Yes my old Amiga 1200 from the 80s is still far better than any version of Windows - work asked to me keep documents on SharePoint, it looks like Netware with bugs ,,, asked 'em if they had ever heard of WiKiPedia ... this is the 21st Century 

[I doubt it'll happen to Apple .... btw where has HyperCard gone in OS X] 

The new Kindle looks good ... how about nStream for ... only joking - please fix software update first. 

Exactly my opinion too, but unlike Simon, I do not think it is just about the setup in the consumer environment. Many of the questions is about things that do not work despite having done everything right. Just by reading the past few days threads here on the forum, reinforced my suspicions that it might have gone a little too fast at naim recently??

We obviously get a biased set of experiences here. People are more likely to post about issues than non-issues. It is just more interesting. My own Naim hardware (SuperNait, S600s and HiCap) are all excellent quality and trouble free. Solid, stunning fit and finish, and trouble free (or at least nothing a restart doesn't fix with the SN controls).

Based on the (biased) set of requests for help, and the subsequent baffling suggestions, the whole Naim UPnP world seems ridiculously buggy and complex to me. This impression is reinforced with my experience with it at my dealer's on the few unfortunate occasions I've been subjected to Naim streaming products and software there.

Undoubtedly, with such a range of excellent products, the popularity of Naim has increased. Their streaming products work well. I have two,they both work brilliantly.

Unfortunately it may be the case that the quality of customer has suffered in the process. Most reported streaming errors seen on this forum are down to user error or ignorance of the actual limitations of streaming.

Bit like expecting the Nikon D1 to have been capable of D4 performance...... just not feasible. Oh and their latest D600 has a mobile adapter for wireless transfer. Compatible immediately with Android but the iOS version will be along later.  Well imagine that, I bet the Apple crowd are at fever pitch!

Andy

naims streamer range is confused and for most far too expensive.  others produce that are adequate for most and are great value. the nds5  must sell very well and i guess the qutelite will be the same

Alas Andy the D4 is not quite upto the D3S, sometimes newer isn't better even though the stats look better :-)

The D4 though would be a choice if Video is important. :-)

A lot of people seem to have had a trouble free relationship with naim.  

Of the six naim components I own/have owned only one has not had to have some form of work done on it and that is my isupply....  

I think there is a quality drop but the deterioration is in the quality of dealer service. The products themselves seem very reliable overall. If the dealers all installed the streaming products and ensured they are working in the customer's home then most of the problems would not arise. Too many Naim dealers are still most comfortable with the traditional Naim range and whilst they are happy to sell and take the margins on streaming products they are unable or unwilling to do the rest of their job. I know this from personal experience as well as from numerous posts and threads on this board.

I taught computing at a university for over 20 years and home networking is not that difficult a topic given the sophistication of modern products. If a dealer is making a living selling this stuff it is not too much to ask that they learn to support it - it should not be left to the customer to sink or swim, or more likely get help here or from Naim directly. The contract is with the dealer and they need to step up.

For my two pence worth.

1. My olive stuff couldnt be marked - my black stuff can.

2. My olive stuff didn't hum like a small sub station - my black does.

Ho hum ... I am trying to work out how to put my black stuff in a different room because hi-fi should be, like the victorian view of children, seen and not heard.

Andrew

Hi Andrew -

I moved our A/V stack out of our main room and into a closet in the adjoining bedroom.  For control, I ran an IR repeater -- a tiny receiver mounted just under the TV that branches out to all the components on the other side (AVR, Apple TV, etc.).  It works a treat, and of course, the WAF is off the charts!

No reason why this couldn't work for your NDX-based setup, so long as you make sure the new location is accessible and well ventilated (I had to add a fan to one side of my closet, and a vent to the other in order to keep things cool).  Given nStream is IP-based and does volume control, I don't imagine there will be too much walking next door to push a button either.

But if for some logistical reason, you are prevented from doing this move, there is another option. The Isotek Syncro power cord provides 100% relief from hum.  It, in combination with a high quality power strip or PDU (no filters of course), will completely eliminate the hum in all connected components, and has zero impact on sound quality (to my and Mrs. Hook's ears anyway).

Would be interested to hear how your setup move goes!  Good luck, and ATB.

Hook

Hook

Thank you for the comment re: ISOTEK.

Alas, I tried one but it made no difference.  The electronics may have to go into a bedroom upstairs and then run the speaker cables through the floor, through the wall into the dining room downstairs and then be controlled by ipad.

If you have any other suggestions - they would be welcome.  Why the XPS2 / Supercap2 / 300PS all hum when the XPS1 / Hi-Cap didnt and the 135s hummed a very small amount confuses me (and it was normally one 135 not both).

Andrew

Sorry to hear that Andrew!   I guess that means the source of your mains problem is something beyond DC offset.  My 555PS, 552PS and 300PS all hummed loudly, and I sit very close to my rack, so I could hear them during soft portions of songs.  The Synco worked perfectly in my situation.

The only other thing I can think of is an isolation transformer, like the Isotek Titan with a Multi-Link strip (both of which the Sound Org guys tell me work great with Naim), but then we are talking about very expensive new components.

Hook