Too many options- help!

Well, if you could squeeze that budget to £5200 you could add in NDX + DAC!

But that is just confusing things further; you really have to listen and take into account what you are connecting to. There is no doubt in my mind that a power supply later will certainly up the anti.

If Guy looks in he will almost certainly tell you that a Mac Mini into the DAC is also a very real contender, I have not heard this combo but it could well be worthy of consideration.

So, not really what you are asking but I think you need to have a listen and decide how you want to use your system, this may also guide your choice. Personally I don’t think Naim make a bad sounding unit so differences are likely to be subtle. We chose the NDX but frankly could have lived with the HDX and I am sure would have been very happy.

Regards

Peter

Hi

For convenience the Userve is difficult to beat.

Hooking it up via Ethernet to a NDX or digital out to a nDac are the two options I would try - should be a good contest.

I own the former but with hindsight often wonder whether I should have at least tried the nDac solution, especially as nserve is the better control app.

atb

ray

James, the sonic qualities you mention are all found in the combinations you've outlined.  Will all those combinations sound the same? Not to everyone, that's for sure.  Will one sound better than the rest to you once you've eliminated all other variables?  I don't know

You really need to listen, as with some of your combinations you've included two dac's -- the one built into the streamer and the Naim DAC.  You owe it to yourself to listen to the streamer itself, with and without a power supply, before committing to making it's internal dac redundant at significant expense.  Some folks here absolutely use the NDX with the external Naim DAC, but some prefer it the other way.  Each will give you adjectives, but you really need to hear the combos.  Is that possible?  Otherwise, will you prefer ND5XS + DAC over NDX? Who knows!

Personally, I would not be 'scared' of the UnitiServe as a player, however if you are comfortable with home networking and setting up a NAS to act as a uPnP server, or with a couple of the other options (Mac Mini as a player directly to the dac, or buying a VortexBox appliance to use as a server), you could save some money by skipping the very convenient but somewhat expensive UnitiServe.  My system started with the UnitiServe into the Naim DAC, and I have been very happy with it both sonically and for convenience.  The UnitiServe takes care of the NAS duties and the server duties and the ripping duties and the playing duties all in one small box!  Its value for money compared to the other options I mentioned in this paragraph are hotly debated here; but it does do all that I just mentioned and does them rather well. 

Thanks for all the replies 

I had a good dem yesterday- not all the options I had considered were available as it was late notice, but I had a listen to a userve/ndac and userve/ND5XS through some pretty esoteric naim hardware and speakers. Very interesting.

The nDAC was very musical and very precise (surprisingly to me, more so than a CDS3/XPS I used as a baseline) and sounded more like vinyl to me even than the CD player. Made me tap my foot and smile, which is good! My only criticism is it was a little hot at the top end, but I don't know if that was the speakers or something else in the chain(?). The XPS was a bonus and made things cleaner still, although the sharpness at the top was still there- not saying it was unbearable, but it was definitely right on the edge of what I could happily listen to in the treble, despite it's undeniable involvement factor.

The ND5XS was still very musical and nicely balanced, not quite as clean or clear as the DAC, but a little gentler, didn't have the chance to add a PSU which may have made a nice difference. Definitely a matter of taste which you'd prefer, though, and I could have lived with the ND5 easily if I had lesser budget (and perhaps with a PSU the slightly more rounded presentation with the same musicality and a bit more cleanness might have been welcome in the long-term!).

Anyway, I was decided on the uServe/nDAC. Then this morning the equation changed a little when I tried my Meridian 808i.2 CDP direct into the power amp as I was setting it back up (it had just been mended and I noticed it has a variable output AND digital inputs - long story, I only had it a few days before it went off for a repair so hadn't quite clocked it's full potential)... It sounded extraordinarily good, and more importantly I realised that I can use it as a DAC, so it turns out the nDAC may be extraneous after all, BUT I do want a server solution.

Had a word with my (very understanding) dealer, who said the uServe would work very well just as a local server for storing my CD collection on HDD and running spdif into the 808i.2, which uses it's excellent internal DAC to process. But my other options are a NS01, or an HDX to feed the files (and stream to other rooms possibly in the future?).

So my question now is much simpler (I hope!) - are any of these better/worse SQ-wise as a sever using spdif direct into a DAC?

Superficially on specs alone, it seems to me that the only advantage of the NS01 is continuously backed up storage, the downside is the use of fans which I'll probably notice in quiet passages of classical music. The uServe on the other hand is fanless, I believe so might actually be better as a local endpoint (?). The HDX looks (much) nicer than both, and is PSU upgradeable, I don't know if it's fanless or not (?), BUT is it actually better using the spdif out, or am I just chucking money away when the uServe will do the same job? The system is very high res, so apparently tiny differences do subjectively make a huge difference in this case...

I guess it comes down to how good the digital out implementation is on the uServe, and how clean it's all kept of RFI, mechanical noise, etc., over something like the HDX...?

Any other advantages/disadvantages I haven't covered? How does one backup a uServe/HDX, btw?

Cheers!

EDIT: forgot to mention- I do want a solution like this which rips and stores without me having to use PCs and set up/maintain NAS, etc.

James, if you have a fixed budget, why not consider secondhand. naim equipment is well built and has a healthy used market. Go via a dealer and you might get a warranty.

With the NDAC to uplift the performance of the ND devices, I would look at offboard powersupplies, otherwise IMO the use of NDAC is not so compelling. 

Also to get the very nest from the NDAC it can be sensitive to support, external powersupply, mains, RFI and analogue line out loading if not to sound slightly sharp with some material. But get this right and its absolutly sublime and it's top of the pack or at least up there with one or two others, but be prepared to tweak.

Simon

Just buy a Mac Mini, dedicate it to audio, add a really good USB or FireWire  / s/pdif converter ,Weiss INT is really good, that's it.

H.

James, I'd be in favor of no fans on the hi fi rack.

That's a very expensive cd player, and yes if you can use it as a dac and enjoy its sound that way, you should "protect" that investment (or sell it).  It's far too expensive to use merely as a transport to an external dac!

I've been using my uServe via spdif to the Naim DAC for over a year now.  I've not read any comparisons between it and the HDX in 'player mode' via spdif out.  The HDX, if you are not going to use its internal dac at all, does seem like "overkill" vs. the uServe, but I've not listened to it. Also, if you are using it only as a player with digital output to your Meridian cd player, I am not sure that a power supply upgrade does anything (or much) for you, as you're totally bypassing the analog side of things in the HDX.

Thanks guys, all good suggestions and advice. Hm, well things have got interesting because I realised something- the Meridian sounds sublime on classical music, it's supremely natural and balanced, in fact, I've never heard tone like it from digital. But I reckon it lacks that last bit of 'drive'/'toe-tapping excitement' on rock/pop which the nDAC, and other Naim gear has definitely got, but it doesn't have quite the same natural tone on classical, especially in the treble department (I found violins and piccolos in particular to be a little harsh...)

I guess I have the budget to get the uServe/nDac and run both that and the Meridian, to let each play to its strengths, if need be, but here's the kicker- the 808 only achieves that level of out and out transparency because of it's excellent variable output direct into the power amp, i.e. eliminating the preamp, etc., entirely. So is there a way I could run the system with the uServe/nDac through a preamp/volume control and still allow the Meridian to go direct to power amp? Could I, for example, get another power amp and run two sets of speaker cable, or is this going to create a ground/feedback loop? Or is there a simpler solution I'm overlooking?

I take it no one has any strong opinions on whether any of the Naim digital servers are better/worse than the others with spdif output?

Cheers.

+1 ... the DAC and what comes after would always be my first approach 

Very good advice from Peter as always - a good dealer will really help you

I certainly don't think the NDX is as good as the above system, but you may have a different view - the NDX is very good, but the DAC is an upgrade in my view given any half decent feed  

NDX + DAC is, of course, best of both worlds, but then you might be wondering if MM+DAC+PSU might be even better for the same outlay 

Sound quality is not an issue with Naim kit, but make sure you are happy with the streamers work - if you are then they're superb. 

I've always thought the UnitiServe expensive and so went for a Vortexbox for my UQ. 

I haven't heard the latest HDX. 

I'm thinking of changing from a MM+DAC/555PS to a KDS/1, but that's another story. 

Visit a Naim dealer who'll let you hear some the options. 

BTW I tried a Meridian CDP G08.2 (I think) as a transport in to the Naim DAC and it was absolutely superb ... as a stand-alone player it sounded great, but the Naim DAC took it to another level ... so I understand why you liked it. 

James, the uServe only has one spdif output, and I don't think you will want to have to be switching cables around between dacs depending on the genre of music you're listening to.  Best to 'settle' on one dac.  Maybe use the Meridian to spin discs only?

You can find lots of posts here about the technical pro's and con's of the spdif output vs. tcp/ip into a streamer, but imho they are not very helpful other than to learn about the underlying technologies. (I have found Simon's posts on how spdif works to be most interesting.)   The best is to listen and decide if you like what you hear.  Technical discussions about why spdif should be inferior abound, but the simple facts are that there are folks here who are happy with the combo you've been considering.  It's no slouch!

James I'm wondering about the rest of the system, including speakers and speaker placement. "Cutting treble" and "just this side of bearable" are not characteristics Naim would strive for (nor that the DAC is known for or that I hear with the DAC and XPS2 combo).  I just wonder if some combination of factors  is contributing to that attribute you're hearing.   I certainly believe that it's possible to build a system where a less-resolving dac would sound preferable.  On the other hand, it could be as simple as the speakers with the DAC not being the right speakers for your taste (I heard tweeters I did not like when auditioning speakers), or even just less toe-in on the speakers(??).

Hi Bart, I couldn't answer for the rest of the system and setup as it's not mine, but was a dealer's dem room, as far as I recall it was well specced and seemed well set up- iirc it was-

NAC 252+Supercap, NAP 300, CDS3+XPS, Ovator 600 speakers, all on reasonably good looking racks with appropriate Naim cabling, etc. I'm reluctant to blame it on setup mainly because I listened to the CDS3+XPS and a Meridian system through the exact same setup for a baseline first, and the DAC+XPS was definitely the brightest of the components I heard, with the CDS3 a close second, the ND5XS next and the smooth Meridian last. For all it's admirable smoothness though, the Meridian streaming lacked the PRaT of the Naim streaming sources, but neither it, nor the ND5XS had that slightly biting treble through the same amps/speakers.

Very unlikely ... could simply be that the presentation is just not right for you. We don't all like the same sound. No right or wrong in this really ... otherwise we could all agree on the best system at any price point 

My system is Mac Mini/Naim DAC+555PS/282+SC/200 in to Naim Allaes and is currently playing Jon Lord's classical style works including the superb new studio version of Concerto for Group & Orchestra. It doesn't sound overly bright to me, it sounds very convincing. However, if you were listening to it then you might not agree with my assertion.

I've heard many a well reviewed system that I really don't like.

[Found it is not always a good idea to post here that you don't like something, best to concentrate on the positive]

One thing I would say is I started with Chord Optical Cable between my MM and DAC and it sounded OK, but not a patch on a device like the M2-Tech hi-Face. I changed the cable to a Wireworld Supernova 6 and it was a revelation (every bit as good as the hi-Face). A friend lent me a Mark Grant glass optical cable which retails at considerably less than the Supernova and I had to admit it was every bit as good. I have no idea why the optical cables sound different, but the glass as opposed to plastic ones seem to work best for me. 

The optical advantage is isolation ... it keeps electrical noise away and the Naim DAC's buffer handles any additional jitter it may introduce with aplomb (I suspect there is almost none). 

When Naim designed the UnitiServe, it was not primarily as a player, but as a device that would aggregate music sources and present them to a streamer through a unified Naim UPnP servers that all Naim streamers would (and indeed do) work with. It does this extremely well and, of course, it does a fine job of ripping CDs. The playing of music through S/PDIF was just there and worked well enough. Many folk use it like this and enjoy great results. 

NDX and so on have more attention paid to the S/PDIF so should be better in this respect. Apple has, at last, produced a small computer with a great S/PDIF out ... not all Apples achieve this. The Meridian CDP's S/PDIF out is amazing, it does some very clever up-sampling so it is not bit perfect, but it sounds fantastic as a feed to a Naim DAC. I'd have bought it had I not wanted to move to the streaming world and keep my CDs on a hard disk (or SSD when the price drops a bit). 

I also use a Vortexbox to feed a UQ in to some Eclipse TD 150s ... these are unusual speakers with a full range driver and got mixed reviews, but there was enough demand for Fujitsu to improve them and double their price with a Mark II version (I'm not sure they justified this and am happy I bought them them when they didn't break the bank). They are marmite speakers - I either get a reaction of it feels live and so natural or why have you turned the bass right down. 

All the best, Guy 

Hard to say, James.  Were you using the uServe via spdif to the ND5XS as well as to the DAC? If so, it shouldn't be that.  If not -- too many variables.   Something about a vs b didn't suit you, and I think you'd need to separate the variables if you really wanted to try to figure it out. It probably would be a mistake to conclude that what you heard was due to any one of the variables.

As you know already the problem with such an audition is that what you experience at home with your setup may be completely different.  I use auditions at the dealer to give me some info, but hesitate to extrapolate to what the stuff will sound like in my room with the rest of my system.  In fact, when I've returned home after auditioning stuff at the dealers, I'm amazed (but shouldn't be) just how different the two venues and systems are, and thus how different the sound is.  That process has saved me money

Guy and Bart, yes I totally agree, it's a very subjective and system/room dependent business, which is why my next step is a home dem where I can have a longer subjective impression and narrow down a few variables. It would be nice to give both the nDac and NDX the chance to show what they're capable of in my own setup, it does seem that most people here have steered away from the uServe if using an NDX or similar, as it appears most can't distinguish between that and a decent ripping/NAS or ripping/MM setup, which makes either uServe+nDAC, or MM, or NAS+NDX a viable option for me financially. Unless I go nuts and decide just to get a Superuniti which will handle all my sources, radio and amplification, stream and act as an alternative sounding DAC for the CDP 

Guy, yes, the Meridian is superb as a transport as well as a player, and I believe that if you use mconfig you can get it to bypass it's internal upsampling/apodizing filter and deliver 16/44.1 out of the spdif out (which also removes the MHR encryption used in a Meridian setup to copy protect hi-res content, and also, more importantly for audiophiles provide a much higher immunity to jitter due to the way the information is re-packaged (as I understand it, something more similar to how networks deliver information rather than how standard spdif works, but I don't know all the details). To be honest, I'd LOVE the convenience and instant access to my music collection that streaming/serving affords, but only if I can get just as good SQ as the meridian CDP, or better (more PRaT, for example...?). I didn't find any problem with the dac or ND5 on rock/pop, etc. but on classical I definitely missed the refinement of the Meridian...

I have some experience here. My introduction to streaming was with Unitiserve serving the Naim DAC. At this stage i was pleased with the convenience factor and the SQ was good. However it was inferior to my CS3/555PS combination. I subsequently bought a second hand XPS2 and this definitley improved the streaming performance, but on the balance of music played it was not as good as the CDS3. One day I decided to try the 555PS on the DAC , this was system transforming and I subsequently sold my CDS3 (and the XPS).

Latterly, I have bought the NDS and this, again has taken the SQ to a new level (in my room/system). 

Gerry

Yeah, I have to listen to some gear at home now. I'll call my dealer tomorrow and ask what it might be possible to dem at home. I'm really getting the importance of adding PSU upgrades to Naim gear from what everyone has said here though.

By the way, Guy, what is it about the Allaes which you find appealing, despite the slight lack of resolution you noted on the other thread? I'm intrigued as I think it's possible to have too revealing a treble response, but just have a nice balance in a system/speaker while retaining that all-important PRaT...

Guys, I'm almost certainly going to try and get a home dem of an NDX, but I have some questions about network setup, ripping, etc. if I may, as most people here recommended using something like a MM, or a good NAS instead of spending perhaps needlessly on a uServe?

So, to begin at the beginning, I'll be ripping to WAV, but is there a way to reliably tag and embed or attach artwork to WAV in the Naim system? I know the uServe does this automatically, but can it be done manually, and are there any known good setups for ripping drives, software, etc.?

Secondly, are there any advantages/disadvantages to any particular servers, MM/NAS, etc. which are known to work well?

Lastly, and more dauntingly to me, it would be very difficult for me to run a network cable up to the listening room, so- can I have the NAS (or MM) in a cupboard in my listening room which I can run power and network cable to, but run a switch just for accessing the internet to get album data, etc.? Or do I really need an outside internet connection at all, or can run this as a little network unto itself? Eventually, if I stayed with it, I'd probably run proper outdoor cat6 round the outside of the house, but I'd rather not do that just to dem!

James -- your last question first.  The NDX really wants to communicate with the device that stores your music via your home network.  There are a host of reasons why you want your NDX and your NAS connected to the internet, including software updates to the NAS and internet radio access.  And in any event, you need a router to assign IP addresses to the NAS and the NDX; they have to be connected to some device that'll assign ip addresses.  I don't *think* you can just hook the NAS to the NDX via a switch and have them networked such that the media server in the NAS serves the files to the NDX. (Maybe someone knows better.)

If you can run a 'live' network cable to a cupboard in your listening room, just put a little switch in there, put the NAS in there and connect it to the switch and run a cable from the switch to the NDX.  If not, my second choice would be to establish a wifi connection to your home router.  Put an Airport Express in that cupboard, connect a switch to it, and connect the NAS and NDX to the switch.  That way all will be 'on your network.'  I think that should work!

For ripping . . . you can rip to .wav and use Media Monkey to "tag" the files. There's a lot written here recently about it.  You run MM on a pc, and over your home network move the files to the NAS (another reason the NAS must be on your home network). Ripping on a computer is very easy, be it a Mac or PC.

It would be silly to get a UnitiServe JUST to rip cd's.  It's value would be to both rip cd's and act as the server as well as the storage device, in stead of the NAS.  You would not need a NAS if you get a 2tb uServe.

Ask follow-up questions; happy to help.  I only figured this stuff out in the preceding months m'self.