NDX->NDAC/555PS vs NDS/555PS(2x Burndy)

Great write up Simon and interesting results. I get the bit about more refinement, but in my system I did not notice the lack of pace, energy and drive that you experienced. Are you running a non DR 555PS? The new DR's do alter the tonal characteristics, and in my mind made my system 'sing' better than it's ever done before.

The NDS completed my 'all Naim' system, and I also wonder whether the NDS has been deliberately tuned to deliver its best like this. At the Tom Tom event earlier this year a few people commented that the Ovators had been waiting for the DRs to really show their true colours.

I was also wondering what the rest of your system is, Simon (although I've gathered ATCs which are probably as revealing as my RA Quave LS-1) and what you (and Allen, who also loves the nDAC presentation) are feeding your NDX/nDACs with- is it a MM, a NAS, or a uServe, etc.? I still find it hard to believe there's no difference in what's feeding serving the music, having done my own experiments earlier this year with a good little USB dac (JKDAC32) and experimenting with different modes on a PC with JPlay (it mattered whether it was run in 'standard' or 'Memory Hog' mode, etc., even though in theory it should have been 'bit perfect' either way and was only 'feeding' the DAC...).

Having only recently (after being a hifi nut my whole life) been able to step into the genuinely 'high-end' it's been a very interesting experience, and to me now my goal is to keep all the refinement I can, but re-introduce that foot-tapping 'I wanna dance', hairs standing up on the back of the neck feeling at the same time. That, it seems, is quite a difficult balance and needs the whole system and personal tastes taking into account. However accurate, clear and refined something is, it's no use to me at all if it doesn't give me shivers up my spine at those musically special moments.

It's actually tempting to 'downgrade' slightly, but a) I would miss the refinement, having known it, b) knowing me, I'd always try to tweak it and make it better again, ending up on the same path once more

What made most sense for me is what you said about the NDS missing the dynamic/timing qualities of the nDAC - I believe that's where the je-ne-sais quoi of components which boogie, and move us, lie regardless of their other qualities. Is it possible a different voicing for classical/rock/etc., might be needed (as perhaps hinted in Guy's suggestion of a switchable filter) as, in my recent dem not only Naim but also Meridian servers were thrown in the mix and, for all their more natural voicing on classical music, they just didn't make me grin in the same way on rock/pop tracks. Having said that, I agree that I don't think the digital filter is a big enough change- having listened to a Rega Dac through a very revealing system I couldn't hear a blind bit of difference switching filters, whereas change a cable or connector and I'd be able to spot it instantly- go figure.

Perhaps what we need is a very subtle 'distortion' switch, like a glorified guitar pedal, to spice things up as needed?

Hi Guys - to answer some points - my 555PS is a non DR version. My amplification is Cyrus Mono Blocks fed by Belden mains leads on an oak frame (My Naim is on Fraim) feeding ATC SCM19 via some relatively old but well cherished Audioquest Indigo hyperlitz speaker cables.

ATC SMC19 are on SomethingSolid stands with acoustic panels a little distance behind to reduce reward reflection. The whole setup in my room is reasonably flat as measured with a spectrum analyser and very revealing to timing and dynamics - really helped by the acoustic panelling which I didn't expect.

I have always like the grip, tone and uncoloured sound of top end Cyrus amplification, and I find they compliment ATC passives very well - more so than many other amps I have tried. Sugden Class A amps are another favourite - but not with the ATCs ;-)

But I concede I am a junky for dynamics and transients and warts and all presentation. I like to hear the production and musicians technique, and a differnt system may well respond differently - and I readily concede the NDS could be optimised for a full Naim chain including speakers. I'd be surprised - but understandable.

ITs not to say the NDS was bad - far from it, it was outstanding - but it didn't hook me in the way like my current Naim system even though I could hear the area where the NDS was subtly more refined - noticeable most with unaccompanied voices.

So its possible a future firmware change, or 2x 555PS, or 555PS DR could change the sound - but I can only compare with what I have at the moment.

But as Harry say isn't it great we have choice and we follow a manufacturer that has multiple high end solutions to appeal for different tastes rather than a one size fits all hierarchy.

Bravo ! Naim

Hi James, its the smoothness i don't really want - it tends to sap the life from the music. However the refinment in the NDS with its presentation of a slightly fuller lower mid complements some voices (female unaccompanied, brass and choristers...), though it got a tiny bit treackley with artists such as Beck and Air - but again this is matter of personal taste.

I feed my 555PS with a Naim Powerline. I feed the NDX when in the NDAC/555PS combo with a Belden 83803 self made mains lead. All selected through trial and error.

I agree IME the NDAC appears dependent on what is feeding it, although this sometimes feels counter intuitive.

Cheers

Simon

Simon,

Thank you for posting your experience and details. It was very helpful to me as well. I recently went to an audio show to "audition" (as much as possible in that sort of environment) the NDS. I currently use a SBT into DAC/XPS2 and I really like it. Without a power supply, the DAC just boogies like crazy but it was a bit out of control for me and it wasn't as musical as my CDS3. With the XPS2, I like the DAC better but I still think there's more room for improvement since it's quite versatile. Yes, I'm sure a 555ps DR would help before anyone suggests it  

I suppose I should have the NDS in house at some point for a proper demo but I'm currently in no rush. Of course there's no denying Naim system synergy but many of us just want to know if we should start saving for the NDS and get rid of the DAC. 

Arun

James - I understand - well always keeping an open mind - I will look out for those cones. What do you put them under? and do you use them with Fraim. Thanks for the heads up.

I use Asset V4 running on a micro PC running Windows HomeServer. (it also runs my iTunes as a service for video into my AppleTV2, and my Ipad/Iphone print server.)

Hi Arun - glad you like the sound of your DAC - and yes I am sure the 555PS will give you more of what you like in spades.

With regard to the home demo of the NDS? If you can you should try it - you nver know it might all snap into place for you - but you will never know until you try.

Simon

Hi Simon -

Really nice work -- a model for how reviews should be written IMO.  I like how you went out of your way to first describe your listening preferences and, therefore, your context for doing this evaluation.  Most helpful!

As you know, I've agreed with probably 99% of what you've posted over the years, even though our tastes and/or listening priorities may diverge a bit.  I still love rock, but now spend more of my time listening to jazz.  I still demand detail and dynamics, but am finding myself more and more looking for tonal richness on playback.  From what I heard this weekend at RMAF, the NDS excels at tone, and makes a classic piano, bass and drum trio sound more real -- more "in the room" -- to my ears.  Also, my toe was tapping a plenty to Doug Graham's left field, indie electronica dub step psych pop rock.   But I need to do as you did, and get an NDS home to really understand the trade-offs.  My gut feeling is that NDS takes me in a positive direction from the NDX->DAC/555PS, but who knows, it was only a show.

Anyway, please once again accept my compliments.  This thread is a perfect example of why you are such a valued contributor on this forum.

ATB.

Hook 

PS - FYI, the show setup I heard was:  NDS/555DR - 202/HC DR/200 - Ovator 400's.  On day two, the 400's were replaced with Dali Epicon 8's, and on day 3 by PMC Fact 3's.

Oh dear.... Curses..... I am at the end of day three... And its growing on me.. Yes it isn't as dynamic, but you know it's virtues are starting to shine through.. It's refinement in orchestral and band music is enticing.. This is not going to be easy

Hi Simon

Send it back now, you know it makes sense.

Excellent write-up that is easy to understand, thanks again Simon.

I was taking some comfort from your post, until now, darn it! Unfortunately the NDS is not an option so maxing out the NDX/DAC/XPS2 is where we are looking although speakers that we have been trying over the past 10 days are going back and a new pre is arriving (for trial) this morning. Trying to ensure the basics are still up to the job first.

Look forward with interest to hearing how things progress – whichever way it goes.

Regards

Peter

Many good points above Allen. The Firmware 3.15 vs 3.16 caught my attention. I wonder what Simon's NDS is running?  3.16 does have a little more mid openness and top bite. What I perceive as sightly fuzzier bass is relative and does not mean it's all gone slack. far from it. It's also room and system dependent. I expect a DR upgraded PS will convey full grip and I strongly suspect this DSP tweak was done with his in mind.

Interesting review Simon, looks like you have Cyrus pre & amp. It still could be good to have some 252/300 or better owners view as well. I'm not saying that those are the bottleneck but knoving how much those could affect/vice versa it could be nice to get more views. Anyway, very good to have views & expecially this one. I totally agree your points what not to loose.

Peter, unfortunately it has to go back tomorrow.. And I think I'll miss it.

Harry, the loan NDS is 3.16. 

Allen, great post.. And yes we are treading a similar path it seems. It reminds me of when I moved from the CDX2 to CDS3. I missed the occasional real emotional high of the CDX2 to the more consistent output of the CDS3 across a wider genre of music. In fact in presentation there appear quite a few similarities between the CDS3 and NDS.

Gandalf i am sure each component adds to the overall performance, and for me Naim sources are second to none, but I prefer other solutions for amplification and speakers, and to be honest it's also what I am probably used to and it has taken  me many years  to get a system that sounded satisfying  to me in my home with speakers being the hardest to get right,  but there was no shortage of options The Cyrus mono blocks are very very special indeed to me, transparency and huge punch in  a modest footprint,  with relatively local backup should I need it. I have enjoyed Cyrus amps from my first Cyrus 3i with PSXR all those years ago.. Lovely  sound, and before that it was the NAD3020, and that still sounds respectable.

Enjoying day (evening) 4 with the NDS.

Simon

I agree about Cyrus amplification- I enjoyed it greatly right from a Cyrus II I had as a teen and right through college. Never had as much joy with Cyrus sources though, or Mission speakers- definitely a case of mix and match being better in their case, I think.

Enjoy your last evening with the NDS, it'll be interesting when you go back to your NDX/NDAC to see whether you do prefer it in the long run having heard the NDS, or whether it's qualities stay with you and you end up getting one!

Thanks for the insight though, has been interesting following this thread

EDIT: I just fully clocked the comments above, that different firmware versions can alter SQ- it seems to me this could either be good, or pretty bad! What if you loved the SQ when you initially bought it and an upgrade changed it in a way you didn't like in your system? It seems to me that upgrades which improve functionality should be separate from ones which change SQ, and SQ ones should be separately downgradeable too...

listen to the cyrus mono 300s  fast clean and stunning

It is always interesting to go back to what you had before the audition. I well remember being not all that impressed with a 555PS until I took it back!

Either way you can't lose. Happy times.

nice review, but if I may say so has one big flaw.

I would not seriously be able to evaluate a NDS calibre source with cyrus gear. 

no disrespect intended, but it's important to mention the full context of the audition.

the whole audition review, while interesting, lacks credibility with cyrus in the equation

Hi Analogmusic, I now have a 282 / HCDR/ 200 and the attributes of the difference in sources is the same. I hear these differences on a 500/552 system as well where the differences are even more pronounced than with Cyrus amplification.

Interestingly  the 282 / 200 is quite similar to the top of the range Cyrus sound in some respects ( I have written about this elsewhere) , more so than say 202/200. Of course the 282/200 gives me the PRaT and a degree of refinement and vibe the Cyrus didn't have. However it was the presentation difference  between the NDAC and NDS that i picked up on. Each one accentuated different attributes in my music. I wrote extensive notes on this as I was surprised at the outcome. . In the end the NDS suppressed certain pace and rhythm qualities compared to the NDAC/555PS but with the  benefit of increased detail. So for me, and it is a personal thing, by recordings sounded less engaging with the NDS, and so have remained with the NDAC. Looking forward to the NDAC2 at some point as hopefully that will combine benefits of NDAC and NDS and cancel weaknesses of both.

Simon

First time I've seen Cyrus mentioned in the same sentence as lacking credibility. Rather unfair IMO. It is easily be capable of showing the difference. 

yes in terms of clarity

but the differences alluded to were in terms of engagement and pace rythm and timing...

hence my comment.

I have heard cyrus kit, and it's not particularly engaging to my ears.