The beautiful game....

http://optimistworld.com/chari...ball-to-change-lives

http://www.justgiving.com/beagoonerbeagiver

http://www.soccercharity.org/

https://www.thefa.com/TheFA/WhatWeDo/FACharities

what sportmanship , teamwork and camaraderie ,,

this is worth a look as well for an insight into cycling sportmanship

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/20051664

i shouldnt really bite at winkys anti football remarks , but to late i have done .

this is worth a look for good cycling behaviour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zefh44TZ9_Y

I've seen that before. But thanks for the repeat. Hilarious.

I think Winky may be upset about Armstrong bringing the world of cycling into disrepute.....and he wants retribution

Ugly is just the flip side of the coin of beauty......human nature will not allow one without the other.

In football, I would say that it would be nice to see the losing team applauding the winning team as they left the field as they do in Rugby, that would really go a long way as a sign of respect to each other.

Cheers.

Yes, Mr Armstrong, the UCI and very many pro-cyclists and others involved in the "sport" have very little to be proud of. (I can't say I'm "upset" by it, though.)

I find Cavendish' assertion that "cycling is the cleanest sport" based on the fact that all this has come out to be a bit amusing...and disingenuous.  I will agree with him that other sports are not clean either.  Too much money to be made now in many sports to not have human nature take over and seek every advantage; "Let's see...I can cheat and make a ton of money, or I can be altruistic and be a broke also-ran that no one ever heard of." 

In the end, I think it was Armstrong's arrogance and being a self-absorbed a-hole that contributed largely to his undoing.  When you are not well liked, people will find a way to get you...and it appears to me (admittedly a casual observer of the sport, albeit with friends who are all about it with whom I ask questions) that Armstrong was not a really nice person.

Reminds me of the adage; "Be nice to people on the way up, because you may meet the same people on the way back down."

Hi winky,,

I have to admit the clip of the so called football teams fighting doesent do anything to enhance the beautifull game .Thankfully these incedents  are few and far between and doesent represent  what Junior football in England is like.

TWP

This would ruin the charged atmosphere. No real fan would support such an openly effeminate act spoiling tradition.

Not for nothing is football by far the most popular sport in the world. At the end of the day rugby is a minority sport - it can't even muster a decent World Cup. Hardly a beacon of aspiration for football.

We have seen the quality of sportsmanship in rugby anyway http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ppwVqvTipU Have to also laugh at the 'stadium' they're playing in - more like a local park with a few seats. Shows what the regular support is like.

Re cycling, it is much cleaner these days than most other sports. People are kidding themselves if they think all rugby players keep athletic with bulk on through sheer hard-work and pies.

I think you need to follow the money. Once there are huge financial rewards, the cheats, bullies and liars will flock like flies on a dung pile.

I enjoy watching professional sport (but do not "get" football in any of its guises, and really don't enjoy watching it). I do not delude myself that professional sportspeople are suitable "role models" in any substantial sense.

And yes, Armstrong seems to have been (and perhaps still is) a particularly repellant individual. He claims a lot of his detractors simply hate him. Well yes; very perceptive of him.

Jason

No offence but many without any history in football start preaching what is best for it. Often this is tied up with referring to the players and fans as chavs etc. With the johnny-come-lately prawn sandwich and chardonnay brigade has come a lot of this. Heard at QPR vs Chelsea recently...'I say why are we constantly booing that chap seems damned unfair.'

My fellow season ticket holder (female) has just laughed at the thought of clapping the other teams off. it is too effeminate for women even. Suggest you stick with the chardonnay

Don't have a bee in my bonnet about rugby - I never watch it although I do find the chest beating funny when the rugby 'world cup' comes around. Are the Isle of Wight in it yet?

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark - 

It seems that as a "real fan" when you buy your season ticket you also get the keys to the cliché cupboard (Excuse my use of the French accent).

Assuming "real fan" is a season ticket holder.

Its interesting that in many sports, what is seen as acceptable behaviour in one is not accepatable in the other and that what is considered acceptable has changed over time. A boxer will applaud and hug his conqueror as a sign of respect. A footballer will kiss and spank his teammates bottom and even an opponents to show respect. And we want to kick rascicsm and homophobia out of football in respect to our fellow non ethnic white and homosexual "real fans" and team members who play for the team that we support, as a real fan. But to applaud the team that beat us in a game of football is not acceptable to a 'real fan' becuase it is perceived as "overtly effeminate" by those fans. Its a bizarre would this 'real fans' world you inhabit Mark.

Its a pity that real fans are being shafted by their own teams every time they buy a season ticket, buy food and drink at the stadium because 'your team Plc' has had to raise ticket prices to accommodate, firstly, stadia modernisation after the tragedy of the Hillsborough disaster, and then the increasing high wages of the players year on year. 

Lets not forget that modernising both football stadia and the culture of football out of respect to all those unfortunate dead real fans at the Hillsborough tragedy was the right thing to do, even when real fans were complaining about the loss of traditional standing stadia. 

Its not about Football v's Rugby, beer v's wine, its about respect to sport and those that engage in it. I am not offended by your comments, its just sad to see such great national sports like football and rugby denigrated because of, what seems to me to be 'real fan' prejudice. I guess that you are a real fan of your team and not football, otherwise you would want to see whats best for football including showing respect to your fellow man or woman that play it.

I wager that after a fews seasons of applauding the winning team off the pitch at the end of the match, real fans will get back to complaining about how they are being shafted by there own clubs because of the high prices of season tickets.

Cheers.

Gotta say I agree with Marky Mark. Football is essentially a tribal sport, which is why it has such a hold over the world, and why derbies are so charged (think Boca Jnrs v River Plate, West Ham v Millwall, Rangers (RIP) v Celtic, the Sheffield derby, etc).

Many of the great footy rivalries have their roots in deeper conflict. The Irons v Millwall rivalry has its roots in a bitter docks strike; Sunderland v Newcastle is based on a rivalry that goes back, IIRC, to the English Civil War; Boca v Plate has its roots in workers v owners... and so it goes on.

Fans of either side would not tolerate a "sporting handshake" after WHU v Millwall, as both sets of fans want their side to win more than anything. A handshake would seem to indicate that it doesn't really matter (which of course in the great scheme of things it probably doesn't, but in the context of a stadium or the pub, or a rivalry, it most certainly does).

I dislike rugby because it is so insufferably middle class, as well as just daft. The alleged "sporting" behaviour of rugby players and fans is often used as a stick to beat oiks who follow football with, I think.

Perhaps rugby players all shake hands after games because the results don't matter. This is why it is doomed to forever remain a minority sport.

The Mighty Irons,let's have it right

I'm with you on all of this. Why anybody thinks any sporting result "matters" is beyond me, though.

Everyone will have their own definition of a real fan. For my part...
1) I went as a kid and have been a season ticket holder throughout adult years. This has entailed enduring some dire football as we drifted into the lower leagues and went into administration
2) As a child I played football from 8am - 8pm most days
3) I know lots of people on a chat, greet or nod level when I go to the ground.
4) I have only ever spoken with certain male family members regarding footballing matters.
5) I know who crossed the ball for Peter Withe to score Aston Villa's winner against Bayern Munich in the 1981 (yet support neither team).
I hope the above answers your question on my personal qualification as a real fan.

Jason, I note you earlier edited out the bit where you accused me of bigotry (its in my inbox) but have bizarrely chosen to pepper your post with references to racism, homophobia and prejudice nonetheless. This cornucopia of unfounded allegations/implications is interesting. I am not sure whether it is directed at me personally, the general football fan or me as symptomatic of the general football fan?

As a 4th generation Londoner from a working class background I can comfortably bet you a Naim system my personal network is more diverse than yours in all-white-and-well-to-do Oslo. I am proud of London as whilst not perfect most agree it is the most diverse yet integrated city in the world. Living here ambivalence to backgrounds and private lives can become pretty much complete.

Some of your implications are also relevant at a club level as we real fans have given overwhelming support to Anton Ferdinand ever since the JT abuse incident. He doesn't kiss the badge / point to the sky etc but comes over and interacts with us / gives his shirt to the kids etc. He is from Peckham, we're from Shepherd's Bush. We all get it. Its all the one. He isn't going to clap Chelsea or any other bl00dy club for that matter....EVER. We wouldn't even consider it is so far from being acceptable. I would die before clapping Chelsea (ok that is over the top, I would resist mild electric shocks though). This is what holds us together.

I recall once accepting corporate hospitality at Slumford Bridge on the Chelscum end for a cup tie. The host was affable but his missus annoying in equal measure and from the local pony club or whatever. At one point and only on her second glass of bubbly she claimed she was born a Chelsea fan, hadn't missed a game in 25 years and if she cut herself she would bleed blue blood (in a Chelsea sense although the irony was not lost on us). This was clearly untrue so later I asked which her favourite Kerry Dixon goal. Inevitably she did not know who Dixon was. However, she is exactly the type of 'real fan' who can be converted to your 'clapping the other club as fellow persons who have achieved something' idea. To be fair Chelsea do have some real fans. Get yourself down to Fulham where your idea may have legs.

You bring up Hillsborough quite randomly too and seem to be implying that football fans are such simpletons we just complain when we can't stand on the terraces. We miss it, that is all. Is that ok with you Jason??

You might do well to read the book called 'Chavs' by Owen Jones. It might help you understand how wrongly you see me and how very clearly I see you. It is you who are the bigot here.

PS Just noticed your avatar - priceless!

Thanks Kevin. I think you have rugby covered

Mark just think your self blessed my Mrs family are Brentford supporters. She would give most blokes I know a run for their money on football questions, and not just about BFC either.

Pretty pathetic your anti CFC views, but that's to be expect living in the shadows for so long.

BFC don't like QPR but there are real reasons for that.

To be fair Jason, Liverpool - Everton is a pretty friendly derby. Liverpool's real rivalry is with Man U. Having been to one of those games as a neutral (West Ham supporter) I was, well, quite shocked by the level of hatred among many of the fans - lots of not-terribly-tasteful chants about Munich on one side and Hillsborough on the other. Don't think you'd see a friendly handshake after that one

Brentford?? Hope that new bike gets a puncture. Lot of Brentford mates. No rivalry on our part but thanks for Martin Rowlands - we'll loan the Bees some trainees needing first team experience.

I don't think it is romantic baggage. The rich sporting and social history of the game worldwide is something to be preserved and celebrated along with the passion that comes with it. There is also a pretty good sense of humour in the rivalry. I love a bit of banter with the away fans and get it in the ear back. Mo-one is killing each other right?

Another rivalry is Barca vs Real. Even more tribal than the most tribal affairs here. Yet when you appreciate the background and why people even supporting other La Liga clubs will retain some affinity with one or the other it makes sense.

I don't think the importance of football is a perception. It is a reality for billions. You can pitch up almost anywhere in the world with a football and it brings people together. It is the most participated in and watched sport in the world. Why does it need to adopt soppy handclaps from rugby? The people have already democratically voted with their feet (in every sense) in their billions on which is best for them.

Rugby, in contrast, I don't see as being as important. However, it is certainly far worse than football for its delusions of grandeur. The whole interminable bluff and bluster of the 'world cup' containing as it does a limited number of commonwealth countries and such well known rugby nations as Italy and Argentina. The fans who suddenly appear from nowhere. The all-knowingness and commitment of the fans yet the poor weekly attendances for league games ('big clubs' get a few thousand). The talk of being more progressive than football yet if the Beeb took it off the telly it would be largely forgotten in a few years apart from a few public schools and bits of the west country.

It is true that the supposed sportingness of rugby is talked up to convey a sense of superiority over football and its fans. Really it is often an attack of social prejudice along with some small-man syndrome as rugby remains a sideshow to football.

I did briefly enjoy some rugby league on telly as a kid. A window on a far-away northern world I knew nothing of. The 6th tackle coming up and that commentator (was it Eddie Waring??). Great stuff but also hoping it would finish soon when we were away so the miniprinter could fire up.

Shaking hands after the game is fine and has gone on for many years. Not sure why you bring it up as a one-off?? Many of the players across clubs are mates anyway. I just can't stomach lining up to 'applaud the other club's achievements as human beings'. The point made elsewhere that rugby players shake hands because the results don't matter is a good one. I mean what is the big rivalry with Wasps vs Harlequins? Sounds like seaside entertainment to me and equally well attended.

Also a lot of the gentlemanliness in sport is a veneer. Look at the scandals which have beset such 'genteel' and 'respectable' sports as golf and cricket. What about the 'sport of kings' in horse-racing? Very clean and above aboard! Perhaps football fans are just more honest, don't need the charade and like a bit of fire.

Agreed on above. It is just the 99.9% of the world's population who don't care about the result  Anyhow, just don't think it fits football. Next thing you know it will be an exchange of favourite poems. The pre-match handshake is enough trouble as it is!

Agreed, lets agree to disagree. Must be an alternative debate on FLAC vs WAV going on....