Dilemma - mac mini/nDAC or ND5XS/NAS into Nait5i or NaitXS?

My own view would be a Mac mini to a DAC to a Nait Xs - only because this is what I shall be doing  after having your same dilemma during the past few weeks. The Naim streamers are great as an added facility, however I felt in the end that these technologies have such a high turn-over, in the same way that smartphones are being replaced every 12 months now. If you have the amplifier and Dac, it would at least become the heart and lungs of your hi-fi - and then other multiple sources can then grow around this, such as a Mac which is really your server & pseudo-streamer.

To me this amp & Dac arrangement seemed a safer bet than to invest in a ND5XS at this moment in time, it feels like streamers are still at the "early adopter" stage. I cannot say how the two arrangements compare for sound quality, though you are bound to see replies soon that the Mac mini and DAC is a good combo for sound.

Hi Guys,

I think DH provided some very good feedback here; the nDac/Mac route is a very valid choice and leaves plenty of room to further build and extend in the future. A lot of people here on the forum are very happy with it. On the other hand I can from experience say that you should really take a listen to both. I have been in a similar situation (Nac155Xs, NAP150Xs and FcXs) and given my system, I felt the ND5XS was a better and more balanced solution. It is probably all in balancing your system and trying to clarify where you want to go in the future. I will probably stay in the XS series for quite some years, and for me the ND5XS did the better job.

Good luck and call the dealer for a audition :-)

Iver

I feel that these are very vaild and not often mentioned points. Even if I could afford it I would be extremely wary about investing in proprietry streaming devices at the moment. A PC or a MAC with a DAC is a much safer long term bet - not to mention cheaper. New or updated software can be downloaded easily as needed, and often for free, and will continue to function for years without needing to worry about updating your hardware.

There will always be those people who insist on keeping up to the minute by having the latest gizmo, and that's fine if you can afford to fund it. But not for me.

Peter

Starting out with a Mac is a good idea, IMHO, even if you are considering getting an ND streamer at a later date.  You may very well decide to keep the Naim DAC and play the ND through it.

I currently use a Mac Mini into the Naim DAC.  No complaints!  I demoed an NDX at home for a while and liked it a lot, too.  For me, an important benefit of the NDx is nStream control of the rest of my Naim components.  The Mac plus nDAC cannot do this.  But, the Mac does Spotify Premium exceptionally well, and music server functions for me, which I would want to retain, even if I had the NDx.

The now-discontinued Squeezebox Touch is an even cheaper way to get started, if you can find one, and can deal with the inevitable fading support.  It trades features with the Mac, but sounds as good, or maybe a little better, to me, in my system.

Nick

Jason,

I could be entirely wrong and I don't claim to be any kind of expert here, but IMO 8 -10 years is being a little over-optimistic judged purely by the current rate of progression of digital technology. This progression is driven by all kinds of sources across science and industry and I would have thought that it is likely to gain further in momentum as time goes on.

Even so a useful product life of around 8 -10 years is a pitifully short one, especially given the high cost of purchase. To me it would be unthinkable to invest that kind of money on something that would only be useful for such short a time. When you compare analogue pieces such as the early Naits, they are still giving sterling service around 30 - 40 years later!

This is the great problem with expensive equipment based around a rapidly evolving technology. As I said, fine for those who have the means and the desire to "keep up", but for the average user an extremely expensive way to enjoy music replay long-term.

Peter

Hey, thanks guys,

I probably owe it to myself to get to hear the nDAC before purchasing the XD5xs, and the longevity is an issue to consider with the outlay involved.

ps still have an old LP12/Akito to attach on if that affects choices

If your TV is in the same space as your stereo, don't overlook the value of the Mini as a video server/streamer for web content. We use ours for this quite often (Netflix, iTunes movies/TV shows, youtube etc). Of course it also lets us load video and music onto our iPads/iPods for travel. We stream (using Apple's proprietary home sharing) video to iPads in other parts of the house for personal veiwing, too. We can control the Mini from multiple devices from all over the house. It is a really verstaile option.

Oh, and so-called UPnP is the work of the devil.

Mac Mini + Supernova 6 + Naim DAC would be my choice - it'll just work and sound great 

The Mac Mini is a super little low jitter transport ... it will play ALAC, AIFF and even WAV and FLAC if you want with aplomb. It is not fussy which format you choose it plays all equally well. If you go for ALAC/AIFF then you can use iTunes/Bit Perfect - if you go for FLAC then Decibel. 

If you want lots of storage then you have Thunderbolt to add as much as you want ... 32 TB ... rather a lot of CDs 60,000 or so. Otherwise you can get one with a Fusion drive, which will do most things in memory and will hold around 2,000 CDs ALAC. 

You can play any of the internet things through it ... BBC iPlayer, YouTube and ... 

You can update it with a click. 

You can control it with VNC and use Apple Remote to play songs

Guess what I've got ... 

I think, but I'm not 100% sure, you'll be able to play DSD streams on it ... if they become a standard. 

Apple makes very nice computers, Naim makes wonderful hi-fi. 

It is a bit like the guy with the Rembrandt and Stradivarius who went to have them valued and was told they were worth very little on the grounds Stradivarius was a lousy painter and Rembrandt made rotten violins. 

The NDS sounds wonderful, but is really for the early adopters club. 

The Naim DAC is pretty sold though ... no network required. 

I'm no expert either, but I have 10 year old Mac that still works ... it cannot use the latest software, but it works well enough ... I think people get rid of computers too quickly. Yes in 10 years time CD may be obsolete, the ND5XS may look old hat ... but it'll still play all those old CDs that were ripped and they will sound just as good. 

I'm sure my Mac Mini will be an antique in 10 years, but I think it'll still be going strong

I think a Vortexbox will survive for even longer .... Linux things tend to. 

Oh yes and the other lot will have Windows 18 by then ... which will need 1TB of RAM just to boot (my Amiga does it in 64k), but I bet your PC still works. 

Of course, if people will design software with Flash and similar rubbish then that will drive obsolesce - the BBC being culprits : you need to upgrade your Flash ... oh no Flash upgrade available for this platform. A case of if doesn't need fixing then break it. 

Now when is that Reference DAC that makes everything else sound broken coming out? 

great thread .... one thing I want to add, is that - although in favor of the ND5XS - I feel it is annoying the ND5XS has so little digital inputs. The total nr is 3 with only one Tosslink. If you, like me, want to use the excellent dac section of the ND5XS for your digital tv box, airport express and/or dvd player, you very quickly run into a lack of connectors with the ND5XS. The nDac has way more tosslinks which is very uesefull.

I stay with my final recommendation of setting up an audition, since I strongly believe in balancing the system. You should not upfront disregard the ND5XS. For me its SQ did it !

Cheers,

Iver

Lol, I thought Guido would appear with his very compelling arguments.....now where's that Totemphile

Rave - resistance is futile

Guy,

The point is that although digital technology will be moving on, if your digital source is a computer based one rather than a proprietry Naim solution then it will be much cheaper to update it if required, and this applies to both software and hardware aspects. Also, as you pointed out, Naim made their reputation from making superb hi-fi, and there is no particular reason to suppose that these skills will transfer to computer engineering. Best leave that to computer manufacturers.

My concern is that with a Naim streamer for example, one is effectively "locked in" to that particular solution. It will only run Naim software, and if at some future point Naim decide to abandon software updates/bug fixes for the product then one has effectively reached a dead end with it. Not so with a computer, which is merely a platform that will run many different software applications, eg.look at all the different media players that are downloadable.

To my mind a computer is far safer as a long term bet, especially if budet is a consideration. Of course those with very deep pockets need not concern themselves with such trivia, they will just scrap and buy new as required.

I absolutely agree that products such as the NDS are for the early adopters, a breed which will always be around. Personal experience has shown me that early adoption developing technologies does not always pay off. When LCD TV's were just emerging I bought a 17 inch one that cost me around £800!!! That sum would now buy a cinema screen sized model of far superior specification!!!

We live and (hopefully) learn.

Peter  

Computer + Naim DAC is an awesome combo.  But I would personally avoid using a Mac if you want to get into robust, serious streaming of multiple things to multiple devices on and off your home network.

Get an ASRock mini PC and J River Media Center.

Mac/iTunes suck for video.  Most have to use VLC.

my 2 cents,

Patrick

Peter, "keeping up with the latest gizmo", "deep pockets", "early adopters", "that breed", "hopefully learn"....blimey, you really don't like the new streaming products. And all those with streamers on the forum, and those that are not, will one day soon wake up and see the light.

I rather think you are being over dramatic on all this. As I said they are good points but only good points that will be under scrutiny by each and everyone depending on their particular position and attitude at any one time.

Your position and attitude is clear at this time...and therefore, I don't equate being 'rich and stupid' with buying an ND5 when one considers the options for streaming music. 

Cheers.

Patrick,

If you don't mind me asking, do you use your PC exclusively for watching DVD's as opposed to a stand-alone DVD player? I was considering abandoning our DVD player, which is a pretty good one (Pioneer DVLX50), and using VLC media player on our PC instead. Would there be any particular issues to watch for in doing this?

Peter

Jason,

    Just seen you email to me. Tried to reply but hoopla won't accept it. Can you email me your private?Email address and I sendreply a reply to our earlier thread

Paul 

Jason,

I certainly don't think anyone who buys any Naim streaming product is stupid or short-sighted. You hit the nail on the head when you said that everyone will make their own decison according to their views/circumstances at the time. Yes I was speaking from a very personal perspective only and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. If I had a lot more money at my disposal I may well see things differently.

Cheers,

Peter

I'd definitely recommend a Mac Mini over a PC if music is your priority as the Mac Mini has a superb low jitter interface which is perfect for the Naim DAC - just add Supernova 6 optical cable and it just works - no Ph D in software engineering required 

The Naim system will work without too much hassle as well ... so I'm advocating the MM as another way to feed the Naim DAC. I use the Mac Mini simply for music ... I've no interest in video or some of more esoteric things. I use it in the same way many use a UnitiServe. You can use Airplay too if that matters. 

Of course, you can put together a very good PC - as Patrick has done - but he's an expert in these matters and, if I'm right Patrick, yours is far from a Common Off The Shelf product. 

If I was not lucky enough to be able to run the Mac Mini then I would buy an inexpensive PC without Windows (why pay for something you don't want) and run Vortexbox on it and use MPD ... however, the PC is then a music player only. If I wanted to use it as multipurpose machine then I'd use Linux with Open Office. There are some programs that only run under Windows so if you must use one of those then .... well that's that. 

So the choice is yours ... as ever opinions differ. 

As always use what you can afford and does what you want .... 

It is as off-the-shelf as it gets.  ASRock Core HT 252B from Newegg.  Scored an open box for $600.  I added more RAM and an SSD drive.

It has i5/Sandy Bridge/Intel HD3000 graphics.  Plays back 1080P without issue.  No discrete video card, just on-board graphics.  Super quiet.

Peter,

Yes you can ditch the DVD player.  I have ripped then lost/thrown away/given away all of my DVDs.  I have watch a few BluRays on it, as I dont want to rip those.

Invest $50 in JRiver.  Their codec packs and video handling is light years beyond anything out there.  VLC is a joke, quality-wise, compared to JRiver.  Although VLC has always been good as it plays virtually anything out of the box.

Lastly, if you use OTA TV you can easily make this your "DVR" with MC.  Record what you want then watch later.  So much better than suffereing through commercials.

Cheers!
Patrick

Hi Guy,

before i drown in tech, does iRadio (radio Paradise etc) work ok with the Mac mini? The reason I ask is that it seem to be great through nStream on ND5XS.

Rob

Although VLC has always been good as it plays virtually anything out of the box.

Absolutely.

Quality on DVD is a question of screen size as much as anything else.

A modest screen and VLC is splendid. I use it and it plays without any trouble at all.

ATB from George

I just tried it and it plays ... Sounded dreadful, but i think that was because it was playing Dire Straits and that would sound just as bad on any radio  sorry not my cup of Ovaltine. Seriously though it sounded clear enough.

If i get a chance tomorrow i'll compare it with the UnitiQute ... . 

I suspect UQ will sound slightly better than MM into UQ for iRadio. I prefer the BBC stations on the UQ rather than Mac into UQ though i occasionally get buffering problems. 

The MM in my view is very good with the Naim DAC. I wouldn't advocate MM into UQ or ND5XS as these are streamers with a built in DAC and play well enough or their own. For UQ or ND5XS, I would recommend a Vortexbox or a Linux based NAS like Synology for your ripped CDs and use nStream for Radio Paradise.

However, my view is that jewel in the crown is the Naim DAC ... and you have got to go some to beat it ... NDS for example. 

The iRadio question is interesting .... 

Can't you just insert a DVD and it plays ... It does on a MacBook ... Always assumed it would on a PC. 

I notice VLC runs on a Mac .. does it have any advantage over the built-in player?

Thanks, Guy