Dilemma - mac mini/nDAC or ND5XS/NAS into Nait5i or NaitXS?

Guy,

Absolutely.  DVDs aren't a problem.  Anything can play that.  Although the sound of a PC/Mac DVD drive is annoying to me.  Thats why I rip my DVDs and play them back that way.  Silent.

BUT, if you want to playback a BluRay or many video codecs, the PC/Mac might not be able to handle the file.  There are many codec options and sometimes people simply have disc images (ISO).  VLC can play virtually any file.  But the quality is so-so.

J River play EVERYTHING and plays it well.  It may be the best video player out there. 

With other players you have to worry about codec packs and whatnot.

This doesn't mean anything to you if you dont watch video files.

-Patrick

Hello Patrick

Thanks - that makes perfect sense. I just wondered why Peter just couldn't play his DVDs on his PC, but he can ... I now know what VLC does extra. 

I have the Get Smart DVD set that I have been watching on my MacBook ... however video is not very important .... I think the only modern films I've seen recently are the Kings Speech and Green Lantern. Most of the films I like were made 50 years ago or more. My Mac Mini is on my Fraim far from the TV ...  I have an ATV should I want to project the Mac Mini on to the TV. 

All the best, Guy 

Patrick,

Many thanks for the info.

Just a thought, I have a number of R1 discs. can the region coding of a PC DVD drive be bypassed/disabled?

Guy,

At present I play my DVD's on a stand-alone player hooked up to the TV via its component outputs and audio routed through the hi-fi. I was thinking in terms of simplifying my set-up as much as possible by using a PC/USB DAC as a music server and also to play DVD's. Our netbook can play DVD's via VLC player but it would not be convenient to hook this up to the TV permanently. I would not rip DVD's to the hard drive, just play the discs.

Like you I don't care for "modern" films. 50's, 60's and 70's movies and TV shows make up the bulk of my collection.

I may retain my stand-alone player for as long as it continues to function purely for ease of use, but when it finally gives up I think I would be inclined to use the PC rather than get another player.

Peter

Going to enjoy listening to ND5xs + Nait5i vs naitxs this weekend. Then I probably need to hear the 152xs/155xs pre power combo which could be interesting. I'll get there sooner or later

The combination Mac mini / nDac is very good regarding SQ (I enjoyed it for almost 2 years). But the handling was a little bit inconvenient. I used the Apple Remote app for headless control of the mini. This was sometimes very slow and cumbersome. Also switching between internet radio and HD music was inconvenient (I used 2 different inputs on the Dac for that). Recently I replaced my Nait XS and the nDac by s/h SN and s/h NDX. This was of course an improvement in SQ but also the handling is much more convenient. Now I use the nStream app which can control all my components.  I am really happy with that. So, I would go for a dedicated streamer.

mipi 

Mipi,

Are you using the DAC in the SN, or the one in the NDX?

Spotify plus Spot Remote work VERY well on the Mac Mini into the Naim DAC via optical.

I would keep the Mini for this purpose, even if I swapped in the ND5X/NDX/NDS (or SN!) for nDAC.

Nick

In many countries it is unlawful to remove region restrictions, and even to simply rip a DVD to  hard disk.

Never heard of any end user being sued however.

Many thanks Patrick.

Peter

Hi Nick,

no, I am using the Dac of the NDX. I am really happy with the NDX and n-Stream. I find the n-Stream app very convenient incl. internet radio and HD music (though in some areas the usability could be better). I don't use spotify. When I had the nDac fed by my Mac mini I used one BNC input of the Dac for HD music (via Audirvana, USB output of the Mac and the M2tech Evo converter). I had to use a different input of the Dac (fed by another USB output and another USB-SPDIF converter) for internet radio. In addition I had to create specific playlists for the radio stations in iTunes. Switching from HD music to internet was a 2-step process: 1. Switch to the radio station in the corresponding playlist, 2. Switch the Dac input. Very inconvenient. But the SQ was good.

mipi

Hi Mipi,

spot on, to my opinion !! Many people here advise the Mac Mini/nDac route which is a very, very valid option with lots of flexibility and a very good sound quality. However it means extra boxes and - to a certain extent - a sacrifice on usability since one cannot use nStream and needs a seperate interface (iTunes remote app). Often not mentioned here !

more important, please (!!) arrange an audition since there is a sound difference between both options and not everybody prefers the MacMini/NDac Over the ND5XS on SQ.

For me the value of the audition became again clear today here on the forum, where somebody mentioned a huge difference between bare NDX and ND5XS that I did not hear myself recently in a similar demo. It is all to system balance and presonal preferences.

keep us posted, highly interested !

iver

To me of course ... any half decent transport, of which the Mac Mini is superb, into the Naim DAC outperforms the NDX ... this nothing to do with the Mac Mini, but the Naim DAC. So what extra bits do you need

1. Buy nice new Mac Mini with Fusion Disk
2. You need a VNC app on your iPad if you want remote control of the Mac screen
3. You need the Apple Remote app on your iPad - which I find works really well, but it doesn't have nStreams bells and whistles ... 
4. Bit Perfect app as a plug-in for iTunes - this simply optimises the system - you hardly see it when it is installed (it is not essential)
5. Buy Supernova 6 glass optical cable 
6. Buy Naim DAC 
7. Plug Supernova 6 glass optical cable  between Mac and DAC
8. There is no number 8 - you're already enjoying the music 

Alternative

1. Buy a switch 
2. Buy two Ethernet cables
3. Buy a NAS
4. Plug NAS in to switch
5. Buy Streamer with built in DAC
6. Plug Streamer in to switch 
7. Take quick course in networking and ensure you have IP addresses, sub-network mask and default gateways correctly configured
8. You need the streamer app for your streamer
9. Probably need one for the NAS too
10. Get UPnP to work
11. Set your NAS to transcode to WAV
12. That's all there is to it - now enjoy the music

Both work absolutely fine ... but A sounds better to me unless the streamer in B is the NDS

As nearly everybody says ... do the audition it is only way. 

I love that post, Guido!

iTunes is an unsung hero, and indeed for some can't be any good because it is free!

It is so good that I'd love to get a MAC so I could use it where was designed for!

ATB from George

Hi Guido,

I find this list of alternatives a little bit misleading. I set up my mac mini as a UPNP server (had to install Crossover and Asset UPNP), then I had to configure it (which I found easier than configuring iTunes and a bitperfect playback software). Then I had to setup the NDX which was done in 3 minutes. All this neither was difficult nor time consuming.

But the important thing is that the setup activities for a NAS and the streamer only have to be done once. it's a one time activity. If you set it up, it's running and you can enjoy your music. The inconveniencies of the nDac/Mac mini combination (I mention them above + you always need 2 remote controls & Apple's remote app from time to time has a bad response time, e.g. if I pressed the "pause" button it took several seconds until the music really stopped) is a permament thing. And this is annoying (it was at least for me).

Regarding SQ I am really happy with my new setup consisting of SN/HC + NDX: More dynamic, more punch and control and more revealing/detailed (compared to my old setup - Mac mini (Audirvana/iTunes) -> M2Tech Evo -> nDac -> Nait XS/FC XS. I have to admit that I didn't do a comparison of NDX vs. nDac/Mac mini. But I can say that I do not miss my nDac.

To my experience sometimes nDac and external PSU could be too much. I once had an audition of ND5XS / nDac+XPS5 (into Nait XS/HC, S-400). My first reaction was: Wow, great, what an overwelming set of details. But then after a while I realized that it's too much. All the details stressed me and I didn't enjoy listening. To me it seems that the combination of ND5XS/nDac+XPS5 literally dissects the music. So, my advise: Be careful with nDac and PSU's. You definitely need an audition.

mipi

Guido

I always appreciate your insights. This response is so clear and straightforward even I can understand it.

Thanks

Hi Guido, from what I recall you were using the previous Mac Mini, do you know if the new one that's just come out has the same low jitter capabilies? What would you consider to be the  minimum configuration of a Mini to function as a streaming device?

Renz

With all digital sources today, they are being updated quickly and technology changing. Both Dacs & Streamers are constantly changing and a Dac will be just as outdated in 8-10 years as a streamer. Analog preamplifiers, power amplifiers + speakers is the heart and lungs of your hifi. Digital sources will constantly change when records on the turntable have now out lived 8 track tapes, cassette tapes, cds, dvds, sacd, dvd audio.

In fact on other forum McIntosh audio owners have been having same type discussions about having a dac built into the newer preamps. Not wanting obsolete dac in preamp years from now and prefer Dac & preamplifier stay separate pieces.

I have used Mac Mini with Amara to Dac and J River Media Center on custom pc to a Dac as well before changing to Bryston BDP-1 digital player last year and now have Naim ND5 XS to replace the Bryston piece as interface software using iOS devices on Naim much better.

Naim has 3 streamers ND5 XS, NDX, NDS + 3 all in one units such as UnitiQute , UnitiLite, Super Uniti as well as hard disc players HDX and UnitiServe. Just recently added Nac-N 172 XS preamp streamer.  If you think about it with Naim having 9 components supporting networked music, you can see they have more experience and engineering than all of their competition:

Linn - 5 network players - closest to Naim

Cyrus Audio - 2 streamers, all in one streamer like UnitiQute and 1 streamer/dac/preamp combined unit

Bryston - 2 pieces - BDP-1 and new BDP-2

Sim Audio - 2 pieces / 1 streamer & dac with streamer

Cambridge Audio - 2 network players

Naim has the advantage of a upgrade path of improved dac (Ndac ) and power supply upgrades

So far I been happiest with Naim's solution to digital audio playback.

Dan

Strangely DACs have not really changed at all, quite simply because the file types have not.

I don't see PCM digital being changed for anything else for a long time.

CDs are going nowhere for decades, and even if they were to cease production next year there so many about that any future DAC is going to have to still be able to decode them for decades to come.

But streaming methods are in the infancy, and I do not have a crystal ball to know where this is going.

A computer can do anything that the software can manage, but dedicated streamers are indeed likely to be overtaken by events far sooner than either computers or DACs.

ATB from George

Naim doesn't make switches, NASs or Ethernet cables ... and unless you're router adjacent to your hi-fi then you most likely have to wire the Ethernet around the house. Is it really easier than plugging a Mac Mini straight in to your Naim DAC? 

I can't say for sure that the very latest Mac Mini matches the jitter performance of the previous model. It might be even better, let's hope it is not worse. 

In this case, Let me give you simplified solution.

1. Buy a USB harddisk

2. Buy a Naim Streamer

3. Connect USB hardisk to Streamer 

4. Install N-Stream Software

5. Play/ Control playback through your IPhone/ Ipad.

Well Naim make the unitiserve, with a NAS option. Ethernet leads and switches are kind of commodity so anyone's will work.. A bit like mains fuses. You need them, but anyone's will do if it has the right specification.

Streaming has been around for 15 years or so and is well established. I guess only relatively recently has it been embraced by the audiophile market.. If such a term exists..(Meridian notable exception)  But that doesn't mean it' hasn't reached a level of maturity.. But certainly as it evolves from it's initial tech savvy consumer customer base it will evolve further.. An advantage and fustration of UPnP is that is very open to allow vendor innovation whilst keeping the core functions as compatible as possible.

The challenge with anything reliant on home networking is that regrettably there is a plethora of rubbish in people's houses that should never have been sold ranging from bad Internet router, poorly implemented DHCP servers, bad wifi access points/routers, the appalling Homeplugs Ethernet devices.. And all this can add up to a less than reliable network that fustrates, rather than enables applications using it.

So in that sense what are the answers? Green field your network using SOHO (small office / home office) best practice for consistency and reliability or look at Guys proposal of computer streaming to a DAC, or use all in one hard  disk players like HDD. Other than that with network players with some (many?) home networks you invite fustration from time to time. If you are prepared for that and prepared to be patient to resolve issues and learn then I think you"ll agree network audio is one of the best things to happen to home audio in recent years. If you are not then I would steer clear.

Simon

DAC technology is changing as quickly as streamer technology. For example, USB input/output, DSP chips become more powerful, new algorithms come and go, technolgy that cost £10k last year costs £500  this year etc, etc......

What is going to change on streamers? Let's face it the Squeezebox came of the Ark and still does the same job, yes functionality has changed but the software has been the catalyst not the hardware and you just change the firmware/software to get those changes. Look at the NDxxx, they are the same bits of kit but with software upgrades making them more user friendly. Not only that, even when Naim does not upgrade software technology, third party companies like JRiver do.

The whole argument is spurious. Buy the technology that gives you the best sound you can afford, it will do so for ages and will improve as software does - bit depth and useabilty wise. 

I beg to differ with Guido:

1. Plug NDx in to mains and switch on

2. Plug network cable from my PC in the back or add USB stick.

3. Listen to music.

I also plug my iPad in to my nDAC for Spotify or iTunes etc etc

Simon,

Is it a challenge to setup the Naim Streamer? Do you need some complex networking, zoning or some QOS to setup the connection? My point is that ethernet cables and basic network switch operates at the physical layer. They are far more stable than running a player on top of the OS. Having a MM would open up a can of worms e.g. Do i need to change the MM PSU, SSD or which player optical cables give the best SQ or even stripping the OS to the bare minimum for maximum performance. I am just not comfortable with the VNC software to control the OS and a Remote player for Itune. I hope waking and hibernating the MM through these rdp software will not be an issues. 

nStream works pretty well for me. Every morning when i open my eyes, i would grap my iphone beside me and play some music before i step out of my room. FYI, my stereo is outside the living. These had been going on without any hiccups.