Dilemma - mac mini/nDAC or ND5XS/NAS into Nait5i or NaitXS?

Posted by: Rave on 13 November 2012

Alot of questions but any advice welcome, starting from scratch, got Neat Elite SX speakers. Heard the ND5xs/Naitxs so far, which didn't sound bad. But would the nDAC/mac mini route give better SQ in this sort of system?  On the amps I'm probably favouring the xs but need another listen in home setting

Thanks for any views

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Hi Caftan.. Setting up the Streamers is/should be  *very* straightforward, and if you use DHCP, like most people do, largely plug and play.

The point I was trying to make that some cheap (and IMO nasty) consumer network equipment stops the expierience as being as straightforward as it should. It is when this happens you need to peer underneath the bonnet and use and refer to terms that sound alien and scary to many.

However if you use a quality wireless /internet router, switch, proper wired Ethernet between NAS / upnp server and network player you should be fine. My installation went in 18 months ago and the only 'network' related issue I have had in that time was when my iPhone and iPad were fighting each other to control my NDX.

Easy fix.. Use one or the other.

 

BTW all network switches by definition operate at the link layer (layer 2). And perform some important tasks for you in network streaming applications. (muticast discovery) The Ethernet patch leads are as you say at the physical layer (layer 1) and care not what they are being used for, but some do prefer screening to sink RFI leakage/cross talk from the twisted pairs from radiating.

Simon

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by caftan
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Hi Caftan.. Setting up the Streamers is/should be  *very* straightforward, and if you use DHCP, like most people do, largely plug and play.

The point I was trying to make that some cheap (and IMO nasty) consumer network equipment stops the expierience as being as straightforward as it should. It is when this happens you need to peer underneath the bonnet and use and refer to terms that sound alien and scary to many.

However if you use a quality wireless /internet router, switch, proper wired Ethernet between NAS / upnp server and network player you should be fine. My installation went in 18 months ago and the only 'network' related issue I have had in that time was when my iPhone and iPad were fighting each other to control my NDX.

Easy fix.. Use one or the other.

 

BTW network switches operate at the link layer (layer 2). And perform some important tasks for you in network streaming applications. (muticast discovery) The Ethernet patch leads are as you say at the physical layer (layer 1) and care not what they are being used for, but some do prefer screening to sink RFI leakage/cross talk from the twisted pairs from radiating.

Simon

 

Hi Simon,

 

I knew you would come back on the "basic" switch operating at layer 2. Yes i know my description at level 1 is a hub which is a dinosaur now. Anyway a normal switch found on the market do work pretty seamless in most homes. Plug in and forget. BTW I am also toggling nStream between my iPad and iPhone...so far so good! 

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

 

<<SNIP>>

 

The challenge with anything reliant on home networking is that regrettably there is a plethora of rubbish in people's houses that should never have been sold ranging from bad Internet router, poorly implemented DHCP servers, bad wifi access points/routers, the appalling Homeplugs Ethernet devices.. And all this can add up to a less than reliable network that fustrates, rather than enables applications using it.

 

 

I couldn't agree with you more Simon...

 

(...at this point if it were possible for me to insert a picture of me giving Simon a huge manly hug I would do...)

 

Much of my working week is spent doing battle with networks that have been installed with Ethernet-over-mains devices and WiFi networks that simply aren't reliable, BT HomeHubs that generally work but sometimes don't, routers which don't allow UPnP discovery between the wired and wireless sides of the network, managed network switches that have been bought because "they were more expensive and so should be better, right?" but drop UPnP traffic because they haven't been configured, software controlled switches in routers that simply curl up their toes and die when they get any reall traffic through them and so on.

 

I know it sounds like a cop-out from our side but almost without exception nowadays the issues that I get day-to-day aren't down to our kit but are down to the infrastructure that they're running on ... last week I had a customer who couldn't access his music store and when I dived in to have a look at what was going on his network was resolving the WINS name of his NAS to an IP address of 92.242.132.15!   

 

 

Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

 

So in that sense what are the answers? Green field your network using SOHO (small office / home office) best practice for consistency and reliability or look at Guys proposal of computer streaming to a DAC, or use all in one hard  disk players like HDD. Other than that with network players with some (many?) home networks you invite fustration from time to time. If you are prepared for that and prepared to be patient to resolve issues and learn then I think you"ll agree network audio is one of the best things to happen to home audio in recent years. If you are not then I would steer clear.

Simon

 

 

Again - I couldn't agree more.

 

My "fault finding kit" includes a basic but reliable 10/100 network switch (8 port NetGear ProSafe if anyone's interested) so that I can take basic switch duties away from routers - You'd be suprised just how often even that simple task solves issues! - a basic cable router (Linksys Cisco E1000) and an old style AirPort Express configured as a wireless access point. I haven't had a "problem" system yet that I haven't been able to get up and working with that combination of kit.

 

Phil

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Phil Harris
Originally Posted by caftan:
 

Simon,

 

Is it a challenge to setup the Naim Streamer? Do you need some complex networking, zoning or some QOS to setup the connection? My point is that ethernet cables and basic network switch operates at the physical layer. They are far more stable than running a player on top of the OS. Having a MM would open up a can of worms e.g. Do i need to change the MM PSU, SSD or which player optical cables give the best SQ or even stripping the OS to the bare minimum for maximum performance. I am just not comfortable with the VNC software to control the OS and a Remote player for Itune. I hope waking and hibernating the MM through these rdp software will not be an issues. 

 

nStream works pretty well for me. Every morning when i open my eyes, i would grap my iphone beside me and play some music before i step out of my room. FYI, my stereo is outside the living. These had been going on without any hiccups.


Caftan,

 

You *SHOULD* be able to plug in a hard disc based UnitServe and a Uniti, ND or NAC-N series streamer and it just work ... if it doesn't then you're into what Simon was saying previously.

 

The kit has been designed to work without any specialist skills or knowledge being required and if you do need help then your dealer should be helping you - that's what he's there for!

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by caftan

Hi Phil,

 

No worries, I do not have any setup issues. In fact, I'm one of the early adopter of NDX. I am using a cheapo single bay WD livebook NAS with the crappy twonky uPnP server and a basic gigabit switch (less than £20) with NO problem for the past 14 months. I have to say nStream is getting better through each update.

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Phill... With the stinking head cold I have right now I wouldn't  come within a 100 feet of me.. Unless you have some sort of biowarfare suit on. 

 

If anyone is interested I have a reliable network using the following but I appreciate its not 'entry level' as it has to do lots of other things than just my audio..

 

cat 5e cable

Cisco 870 Internet ADSL edge router

Cisco 2960 switches

A Netgear switch (for my living room)

Ipad Nstream using wifi from a Gen1 Airport Express with multicast enabled.

Asset 4.1 upnp server on a WHS 

Netgear NAS

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by caftan

Simon,

 

You do have some serious bit of network kit in a controlled envoirnment. Did you enable neflow to monitor traffic

 

cheers!

 

caf

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Caf,

I played with Solarwinds...  But no I don't monitor it.. Apart from my edge router DSL/ATM port occasionally.

Simon.

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Rave

just to update on my ND5xs/Nait 5i vs Naitxs experiences this weekend using Neat Elite sx speakers. Loving the ND5xs but not sure about amplification. loving the drums and beat and rimshots on the Nait5i listening to EC Get Ready and I shot the Sheriff and loving the detailing of Naitxs on alot of other music.  Can I have both?

 In rock, is often the drummer that holds the hold thing together, so that drum whack is so important and seems a bit understated on the NaitXS compared with 5i. But in alot of other respects the xs is  better....help!

Posted on: 18 November 2012 by Clay Bingham
Originally Posted by Rave:

just to update on my ND5xs/Nait 5i vs Naitxs experiences this weekend using Neat Elite sx speakers. Loving the ND5xs but not sure about amplification. loving the drums and beat and rimshots on the Nait5i listening to EC Get Ready and I shot the Sheriff and loving the detailing of Naitxs on alot of other music.  Can I have both?

 In rock, is often the drummer that holds the hold thing together, so that drum whack is so important and seems a bit understated on the NaitXS compared with 5i. But in alot of other respects the xs is  better....help!

There is no perfect everything in life especially audio life. Does one draw you into the music more than the other? If not, keep looking or, since they're both really nice products, just pick one or the other. Once you stop a-b ing and just listen you'll be happy. 

Posted on: 19 November 2012 by Guido Fawkes

One reason I prefer the Mac Mini + naim DAC route to the NDX is that it sounds much better to me. I understand this is subjective. You don't need to do anything special with the Mac Mini ... I think most folk will find it easier to set up. However, the only Naim digital solution that I have heard and think improves on the DAC/555PS is the NDS. My view remains unchanged that what comes pre-DAC is mainly a matter of convenience - use what works most easily for you. It is post-DAC where it counts most. 

 

Unless you have 500 series system or equivalent then the pre-DAC parts seem less imortant to me. The only thing to avoid is a nosy digital source. All of the Naim pre-DAC components work well and if you have them then that's great. The Mac Mini also does a great job. A quality CD transport also works very well indeed. 

 

There are ways to use the Mac Mini without VNC - use a HDMI screen and wireless keyboard ... But it is horses for courses and all have their pros and cons. 

 

There are lots of ways to achieve a first class system. I find the blend of Naim and Apple works well ... and I can upgrade the Naim DAC without any need to sell my soul ... 

 

I also use a UQ and this works really well with a Vortexbox UPnP server ... Can i plug a USB hard drive in to it and use nStream?  ... I had never tried this ... I didn't know it would work.  Sounds good if it does ... 

 

All the best, Guy.