Fake listings on auction sites

Of course, persons truly from that part of the world would never use the term "The Orkneys". They would say 'Orkney' or 'The Orkney Islands'. They hate alternative usage, rather as New Zealanders hate the term 'South Island' which should always be prefaced by the definite article.

Fraser 

I have purchased a few bits of Naim kit via Ebay and other online adverts and have not had a problem so far. Sending emails and speaking to the seller to learn the story and then contacting Naim helped reassure me the items I purchased were genuine.

I took cash and a friend to witness the transaction and got signed receipts including written confirmation they owned the item entirely i.e no outstanding loans

These purchases included a 552 and NAP300 and also a NAP500! I bought the NAP500 from the same person I bought the 552 from and he turned out to be an authorised and respected Naim dealer selling his own kit, He has a 3xNAP500 active system and about every five years buys new replacement units (presumably at trade prices) and sells off the originals.

As for UK only listings on Ebay, I have sold some items but will not take the risk of selling abroad. I have bought relatively cheap items from abroad (CD's) but would never buy anything expensive especially from a private seller in case it never arrived.

Personally, I am not aware of the protocol for describing the Orkneys! Perhaps the person is not a native of the Island. Not all Londoners were born in London. It would actually be travelling to the Orkneys or some far flung part of the UK to collect the item that would put me off more than anything else!

Whilst it is possible the person is a scammer - what if he is not? Beware the laws of libel and defamation.

Some unfortunate  people have to downgrade their hifi for a variety of reasons - moving house, divorce, redundancy, etc -so do your homework and trust your instincts. 

I have sold my old kit to buyers from the following countries:

         Italy x 2

         France

         Russia x 2

         Singapore x 3

         China

         Australia

         Sweden

         Germany x 2

All without a hitch.

Gerry 

and your point is....

+1

The best way not get caught by evil bay is never to use it 

If somebody ran a shop that sold dodgy or non-existent goods then they'd be closed down. 

Never understands why anybody buys expensive audio kit from evil bay when you can go to a dealer and get it with a decent warranty ... you don't exactly get it cheap on evil bay. 

Yes I'm sure that some people have used it without any problem so far ... you can run across the motorway and dodge all the cars and not get hit, doesn't mean it's a great idea. I know somebody who sold an old piece of rope through it ... strange what some people will give money for.  

> s/h gear previously owned by Naim owners  who are  willing to sell their gear on these web sites rather than losing 20% or 30%  on trading in prices.

So what? Unless you know the person, it is not a risk worth taking ... if it sounds too good to be true then it is ... just buy the one 30% cheaper in the range, it'll sound great anyway ... 

I'd complain bitterly if I bought something and the hitch was missing .... 

I have bought a s/h 500, an ex-dem 552, various cables and expensive accessories abroad, the first two paid via bank transfer and the others via paypal or credit card. I have also sold abroad, via paypal.

Much of the above is UK based: payments made via bank transfer and products shipped in good condition.

It is strange because when I buy abroad and pay upfront big sums via bank transfer, I am the one who feels vulnerable as I have seen my money depart, but yet to see the product...

As for what I am reading, as in other posts and forums, the "protectionism" against the "foreigner" is saddening.

... I now have a large stock of them if your interested!

...see Sbilotta's reply. 

And so it continues.....555PS, seller based in Isle Of Man, although his other items state he is based in Channel Islands, item pics and description lifted from a previous sale from a well known Naim dealer.... Be careful out there.....

you mean the one about trade protectionism?

I note there are many experiences or awareness of these questionable listings.

i hope all the members that posted here have also taken the opportunity to report such listings to the host sites, getting them removed.

only by such actions, is it likly to become a safer process and fraudsters then consider moving elsewhere

RJ,

As you appear to have discovered Paypal were liable and they can get the criminal pursued. They simply need to report the fraud to the Polish Police. It is regrettable if UK officers informed you that there is nothing they can do. That is not the case, Poland is an EU member state, making it easy for UK and Polish Police to co-operate in the investigation and share information . Even outside Europe, Paypal can lodge a complaint in any country they operate. They are now the victims, who are out of pocket 

Fraudsters recognise no national boundaries. Suggesting that you limit trade within a single country could be classified as a little xenophobic and is completely redundant in fraud prevention. Follow the guidance that is already in place and the destination/origin should have no impact. Apart from shipping costs/time and duties obviously.

If in doubt ask for Mrs Tooley to help. Sounds like a formidable woman to me. My own good lady is also not to be messed with and oversaw my painless purchase of WB Square One speakers. Seriously though women have fewer hangups in getting into a conversation with a seller/purchaser, during which time they can satisfy any doubts that they might have. 

Andy

I was buying on his good faith, but I was the suspect...

M.

My guess is that if you added up all the money overpaid by buyers due to fake bidding by people known to the seller it would add up to a larger sum than that lost by buyers on the obvious scams.

Another interesting point.

I am seeing it just now, for an old Naim amp for which a bidder has, in a few minutes, uselessly bid six or seven times, to bring the price considerably higher than it was.

No, you can't bid against yourself, What is happening in the background is that someone else is bidding/increasing their bid. The bids you see are the automatic bids generated up to the maximum that the visible bidder has set. That's the way the 'bay works. You put your maximum bid in and whilst ever it is the highest bid, your visible bid will show as just a bit higher than the next highest (it will not be your maximum unless the next highest bid is just teeny bit below your max). Once someone esles bids higher than your maximum, they will become the visible bidder.

If you are the winning bidder, and increase your own bid, nothing visible happens. It just increases your "headroom" against any new bidders.

I've likely explained it poorly, but you will often see what you described. It is just they way it works. It is what is known as a "second price auction". The winning price is effectively set by the second highest bid - just a little bit higher. But not set by what is actually the highest bid.

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/p...r-shill-bidding.html

They're aware of the issue. I would be surprised if they publish detail on the scale of the problem and to some extent they won't know of course. Expect it is widespread and probably focuses on high-value items such as....

No, I got it.

Thanks for the explanation.

M.

BTW,

all went well and eventually we became very good friends.

M.

There is a way to beat the fake bidders. Don't bid on the item until the last 10 seconds and only put your maximum bid at a level your willing to pay. I often 'watch' items which go above what I'm willing to pay. I then ignore them. If you bid days before your only showing your hand to others and you could get into a bidding war. As a good Poker player, keep your hand close to your chest. I've bought many bargains this way.

ATB

Steve

I agree with the principle of this Steve but see two potential issues in practice:

1) For a lot of people, the maximum price they're willing to paying is in large part set by their perception of market value. This in turn is set by recent examples of sales.

If a particular type of product sold fairly infrequently and has been subject to shill bidding in recent auctions then there is scope for a buyer to overpay whilst only paying their 'maximum'. Certainly there are plenty examples of people on the broader s/h market who reference the latest unusually high auction to quantify their asking price. It happens all the time.

2) Some like to get bids in early to put off some of the competition. There is always the risk that some people will remain in and just keep going at the last because they have to have it. They may be put off if they see higher bids early on and have time to cool down.

Mark,

Before I bid for anything I know what an item is worth to me and that is what I'm willing to pay. Some auctions go mad but it doesn't mean that subsequent auctions will go the same way. An example, I was interested in buying Alice Coopers 'Pretty For You' 1st press. There were 2 LP's going for sale from different sellers. Bidding was furious for the first sale and the album went for £175. It was over £100 at the time I would have considered bidding which was more than I thought it was worth. The 2nd LP finished a couple of hours later and I bid £75 in the last 10 seconds and won with a final price of £65. The album I received was near mint. This to me is more the norm. Before you bid you should no the value of the item and what it's worth to you. 

Showing your hand early on eBay is a mugs game. If somebody really wants it you'll nearly always be outbid. An example: my step daughter wanted to buy a certain make of racing bike for my grandson for Xmas. There is a back order on these bikes new and not available to buy in time. These bikes cost £400 new and she put a bid in for £350 as the bike was 2nd hand and in excellent condition. She did this 6 days before the auction ended. Within 3 days she was outbid and the bike eventually went for well over £400. By entering a high bid too early you just incite a bidding war if somebody else wants it. I'm not saying she would necessarily have won if she had held back but if there was only one other bidder then perhaps the final price may not have been so high. 

Occasionally I have accidentally pressed the button to early, say 30 seconds and when I looked at the bidding history I could see somebody was trying to find my bid limit by making multiple bids over that time. 5-10 seconds is the optimum time. I recently bought a 1st press of Edgar Broughton "Wasa Was" for £26 using this method, the RC Guide price is £150. I'm sure if I'd put my bid in of £55 earlier the price would have been higher.

Also, never buy anything of any great value from somebody with a low transaction history or a feedback score of less than 99%. 

ATB

Steve

Steve, thanks that is all sound advice and I will refine my forays into auction sites with some of it.

One thing though , you say you should know the value of the item before bidding. I think this is sometimes hard to ascertain. If you have a RC guide for vinyl that is one thing. The s/h market in hifi kit can be more inscrutable. Even on non-auction s/h websites the historical prices asked are usually available but the price sold for is unknown. If there are limited examples from recent times then the latest shill auction may be misleading. Obviously what you can afford to pay should be clear!

I prefer to speak with people if poss. Minimally on email, ideally on phone. You can do a lot on gut feeling. I would feel confident buying s/h from you for example as you are clearly an enthusiast first and foremost.

Mark,

You can get an idea of value by looking at SH prices dealers are offering. With a dealer you also have back up and usually some kind of guarantee so you would expect to pay less on an auction site, otherwise it's pointless. I have sold kit on eBay and have obtained very good prices. I think it's important as a seller to accurately document the goods your selling, with photos, and to answer any questions bidders may have promptly. Sometimes I've been surprised, I sold a 2nd hand 4.5m pair of NACA5 cable for £125. I was expecting about £80-£90. This was with a starting bid of 99p. So sometimes I benefit from a bidding war.   There was no underhand bidding on my part. 

ATB

Steve

PS If you ever buy Naim kit second hand, buy in the UK and make sure they give the serial number and preferably receipts from their original purchase.