The War On Britain's Road - Drivers V Cyclists - BBC 1 9PM
Posted by: Tony2011 on 04 December 2012
Tonight BBC1 - 9PM.
Being a driver/cyclist myself in the streets of London is not easy and, having read several previous threads/comments from more than passionate members, I wonder how will you feel after this documentary.
KR
Tony
The last there posts sum it up for me. Like Winky, I assume all drivers are going to ignore me on a cycle. If one in a hundred does and I am not ready then it will be another broken leg or wrist as in the last eighteen months, when two drivers simply did not see me before driving into me.
No doubt the programme aired the issues well, but i do not watch TV, and am currently boycotting the BBC, so no chance that I will go back word on that.
ATB from George
Which is about all one can say with any certainty. Apart from the fact that people are people and are therefore stupid.
+1, from what I saw of the programme the motorists, cyclists seemed on a par with one or two exceptions, some bad drivers, some bad cyclists simple. Just last week walking from work, nearly knocked down by cyclist on the pavement, driving home one day last week almost knocked over cyclist with no lights ,wearing dark clothing on semi rural road.
I remain bewildered by the frequency of these "I was nearly knocked down by a rogue cyclist" reports. As I have said before, I personally have never had an issue in my 50+ years.
I've had more CEOTTK with skateboarders/skaters on the pavements.
Pedestrians killed in a year in the UK:
- 450 hit by a car
- 40 hit by a car on the pavement
- 3 hit by a cyclist
- 0.3 hit by a cyclist on the pavement
MM,
I was reading and respecting your points of view until you changed your avatar.
Sorry, I just don't get it!
Please do not turn my post into a crusade.
KR
Tony
Pedestrians killed in a year in the UK:
- 450 hit by a car
- 40 hit by a car on the pavement
- 3 hit by a cyclist
- 0.3 hit by a cyclist on the pavement
The cyclists are more of a hazard (relatively speaking) than I would have thought. I expected ratios in the thousands-to-one. Not hundreds.
Of course, in absolute terms, pedestrians clearly should be far more concerned with cars mounting the kerb and killing them than they should be with cyclists either on the footpath or off it. Funny how people's risk assessment is flawed when they only have personal experience and anecdote to go by.
I'm also guessing the number of car drivers killed by cyclists is pretty low. But not the other way 'round.
MM,
I was reading and respecting your points of view until you changed your avatar.
Sorry, I just don't get it!
Please do not turn my post into a crusade.
KR
Tony
Tony
It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek but if it is not seen that way I will happily remove it.
I did think he was a character though. I like him for that. One of the people that make the world go round.
As a cyclist and driver it would be interesting to hear more from you.
As for the thread...you started it 
BW, MM
Winky, I like to think it is because people don't stop to think about what is really happening.
However, even with the actual numbers broken down on this thread people are still coming forward with 'I was nearly hit by a cyclist once' or 'I will have to live with the memory of seeing a cyclist jump a red light for the rest of my days' rather than comments like 'the number of deaths is far worse than I thought and so I am thinking of driving a bit more slowly / less often / without using my mobile / less aggressively.'
Exhaust pollution is reported to cause 5,000 deaths annually in the UK.
I have no idea what percentage of car journeys are really 'necessary' but I guess it is not very high.
If drivers used their cars less some of the possible side-effects are:
-There would be more space on the roads
-Those who actually need to drive their cars have a more pleasant time whilst driving
-Deaths due to road accidents decrease
-Deaths due to exhaust pollution decrease
-Deaths due to obesity decrease
-People could exercise on bikes in greater safety 
-Household expenditure on petrol decreases
Exhaust pollution is reported to cause 5,000 deaths annually in the UK.
I have no idea what percentage of car journeys are really 'necessary' but I guess it is not very high.
If drivers used their cars less some of the possible side-effects are:
-There would be more space on the roads
-Those who actually need to drive their cars have a more pleasant time whilst driving
-Deaths due to road accidents decrease
-Deaths due to exhaust pollution decrease
-Deaths due to obesity decrease
-People could exercise on bikes in greater safety
-Household expenditure on petrol decreases
Riding my bike makes me fitter, happier and richer. Cars ruin everything I love and hold dear.
I remain bewildered by the frequency of these "I was nearly knocked down by a rogue cyclist" reports. As I have said before, I personally have never had an issue in my 50+ years.
Winky, sounds like you doubt what is being said/reported. Maybe you have just been lucky. I see frequently where I live cyclists riding at night with no lights or approriate clothing. Like I said good and bad cyclists and motorists. I also see often cars with no lights or one light not working, this used to be taken seriuosly by the police that would pull you over if you had a defective light, now no one seems to care until there is a fatality.
Winky can speak for himself. I am sorry you had a bad experience with a bike Maze. In my experience I have not seen lots of dangerous near misses on the pavement with bikes either. The statistics show that you are an order of magnitude more likely to be killed by a car whilst walking on the pavement than a bike. Yet people don't talk about that issue and this is what is strange. It is cars that are chopping down pedestrians not bikes.
Do you think it may be because a level of collateral damage by cars has become socially acceptable? It seems as uncomfortable or inconvenient for hardened motorists to discuss this truth as it is for say die-hard smokers to discuss lung cancer statistics.
Re cycling in dark clothing. I do see that from time-to-time. I think there is a type of irregular cyclist who just jumps on the bike normally left festering in the shed now and then and doesn't think about visibility. Whilst this is very silly indeed on their part, it doesn't rationalise the amount of deaths and serious injuries caused to cyclists, pedestrians and other car drivers (no less).....by car drivers.
The Times has been keeping a log of the UK cycling deaths in 2012. You can see it here if you are interested: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/...y/article3313260.ece
As you will see, there are a lot of arrests, police investigations and dangerous driving charges. Given the very lax UK law often tolerates a SMIDSY (sorry mate I didn't see you) excuse (unlike some other countries where the burden of proof is upon the driver), the high number of deaths where some sort of process has begun against the driver tells you that this is about much more than the wrong clothing (fairplay, not that you were saying this is all it is about but you do choose to highlight it in particular)
I agree with you re police enforcement of traffic rules. They largely don't bother. They should pull over cyclists or motorists without properly operational lights in the dark. Even more surprising, the unchecked glut of people on mobiles whilst driving. None of us can deny we only have to have our eyes open on any given day to see multiple examples of this dangerous behaviour.
Where I live you see mums in 4x4's on the school run on mobiles, cutting corners, swerving into the left lane to undertake, slamming the breaks on at crossing etc several times a week. I am not highlighting mums in particular but just saying that drivers as a whole are not responsible enough given the damage they may cause. I doubt even the most hardcore petrolhead would deny this is true. Its all around us. Does anyone deny it?
The thing with saying there are 'bad cyclists and there are bad drivers' is that whilst it may be true on one level, the bad cyclists are not killing and maiming people. The problem outcome is caused by the drivers.
What you see on this thread is that drivers don't really want to address this but instead just talk about a cyclist who they saw jumping a red light etc.
I remain bewildered by the frequency of these "I was nearly knocked down by a rogue cyclist" reports. As I have said before, I personally have never had an issue in my 50+ years.
Winky, sounds like you doubt what is being said/reported. Maybe you have just been lucky. I see frequently where I live cyclists riding at night with no lights or approriate clothing. Like I said good and bad cyclists and motorists. I also see often cars with no lights or one light not working, this used to be taken seriuosly by the police that would pull you over if you had a defective light, now no one seems to care until there is a fatality.
I see cyclists riding without lights all the time. It annoys but does not endanger me, other than that it provides a convenient distraction from the discussion of the real issue which is motorists killing and maiming each other, themselves, friends, family, cyclists and pedestrians at an alarming rate.
Similarly, i also see cyclists riding on the pavement/footpath/sidewalk and running red lights all the time. Same deal. It doesn't endanger me in any significant sense (they "could" run me down, but they never have), but somehow seems to allow motorists to avoid addressing their own culpability. Incredibly, it seems to provide some sort of justification. Observing and pointing out sub-par cyclist behavior is a way of categorising, de-personalizing and ultimately discriminating against a vulnerable group of road users.
I see cyclists riding without lights all the time. It annoys but does not endanger me, other than that it provides a convenient distraction from the discussion of the real issue which is motorists killing and maiming each other, themselves, friends, family, cyclists and pedestrians at an alarming rate.
Similarly, i also see cyclists riding on the pavement/footpath/sidewalk and running red lights all the time. Same deal. It doesn't endanger me in any significant sense (they "could" run me down, but they never have), but somehow seems to allow motorists to avoid addressing their own culpability. Incredibly, it seems to provide some sort of justification. Observing and pointing out sub-par cyclist behavior is a way of categorising, de-personalizing and ultimately discriminating against a vulnerable group of road users.
I have read this thread avidly and cannot believe some of the comments. Before I put my two pennies in, I am both an avid cyclist, motorist and walker.
I cannot believe the statement above. So it is not an issue for cyclists to be on the road without lights or reflective clothing or that some jump red lights.
On these dark cold wet mornings I'm regularly coming across said cyclists, and I can categorically tell you that when you see them at the last second and have to swerve to avoid them it most certainly is dangerous and would be to yourself if I swerved into you.
I spend most of my working day driving in London, I refuse to cycle in London, and I'm sorry but people need to take responsibility for themselves.
I watched this programme and thought what complete ****s. From the young kid who thinks its his god given right to command the road, to the coloured guy who seemed to put himself in a position so he could complain about the other road users.
Please get on BBC I player, re watch it and look at how many cyclists are out in the middle of the lane or in the wrong lane. I'm very familiar with the junction the guy got sandwiched between the two white vans and he's should not have been there. don't even get me on the ones that went down the sides or even worse between two lorries. Total madness.
And yet if anything happens to a cyclist then it's more than likely the motorist quill get the blame.
Im in no way saying motorists are not blame as they are, but I'm sorry if a cyclist kicks or fists a vehicle then I really do not understand how they can complain off the motorist takes offence to this.
Sorry if this upsets anyone but I put up twitch this every day. I can also say that I've had far fewer incidents as a cyclist than as a driver.
Foxman, i just wrote a whole rant in disbelief at your response but as the gods would have it, it deleted itself as i posted it!
i think the key point in your post is that you don't cycle in london because it is too dangerous. All i can do is remind you why it is too dangerous, and that is not because some selfish cyclist jumped a red light! On which my views are well recorded in other threads.
I see cyclists riding without lights all the time. It annoys but does not endanger me, other than that it provides a convenient distraction from the discussion of the real issue which is motorists killing and maiming each other, themselves, friends, family, cyclists and pedestrians at an alarming rate.
Similarly, i also see cyclists riding on the pavement/footpath/sidewalk and running red lights all the time. Same deal. It doesn't endanger me in any significant sense (they "could" run me down, but they never have), but somehow seems to allow motorists to avoid addressing their own culpability. Incredibly, it seems to provide some sort of justification. Observing and pointing out sub-par cyclist behavior is a way of categorising, de-personalizing and ultimately discriminating against a vulnerable group of road users.
I have read this thread avidly and cannot believe some of the comments. Before I put my two pennies in, I am both an avid cyclist, motorist and walker.
I cannot believe the statement above. So it is not an issue for cyclists to be on the road without lights or reflective clothing or that some jump red lights.
If you read what he says, he says it is sub-par behaviour but has not affected him personally. It seems very clear.
As we're back on the red lights 'menace', can you offer any figures on the accidents and deaths this plague is causing? No-one else has found any so it would be helpful.
On these dark cold wet mornings I'm regularly coming across said cyclists, and I can categorically tell you that when you see them at the last second and have to swerve to avoid them it most certainly is dangerous and would be to yourself if I swerved into you.
I think everyone agrees that now and then a few cyclists foolishly don't use visible enough clothing or proper lights. Given you consider this to be a huge menace do you have any figures to support a sense of the scale of the problem in terms of accidents caused?
I spend most of my working day driving in London, I refuse to cycle in London, and I'm sorry but people need to take responsibility for themselves.
Does this include drivers or is it only cyclists who must take responsibility for themselves?
Do you think the cycling deaths and injuries this year are mainly caused by cyclists not taking responsibility for themselves? If so I think you might do well to familiarise yourself with some of the detail of the cases.
I watched this programme and thought what complete ****s. From the young kid who thinks its his god given right to command the road, to the coloured guy who seemed to put himself in a position so he could complain about the other road users.
There we have it. They're all complete ****s. The kid and the coloured guy etc.
Please get on BBC I player, re watch it and look at how many cyclists are out in the middle of the lane or in the wrong lane. I'm very familiar with the junction the guy got sandwiched between the two white vans and he's should not have been there. don't even get me on the ones that went down the sides or even worse between two lorries. Total madness.
It is not wrong for a cyclist ever to be in the middle of a lane. Some possibilities include an obstruction on the left, a movement towards an eventual right turn or simply that he/she is moving at the same speed as the traffic.
What is the wrong lane? Do you decide these things?
How do you know what their intentions were? What had happened before the pictures or what was ahead? I think you may mean to say is it is inconvenient for you as you want them out of your way.
And yet if anything happens to a cyclist then it's more than likely the motorist quill get the blame.
Why do you think this? It is the opposite of the truth. Motorists have scant legal responsibility and a ready-made set of excuses to apply. You can kill someone through dangerous driving and walk away or get 6 months.
Im in no way saying motorists are not blame as they are, but I'm sorry if a cyclist kicks or fists a vehicle then I really do not understand how they can complain off the motorist takes offence to this.
Seems reasonable. Strangely though in the film the cyclist tapped on the car to let it know he was there as it was driving so close. You have turned it into kicks or fists the car. One assumes there would be some damage if this were the case?
Sorry if this upsets anyone but I put up twitch this every day. I can also say that I've had far fewer incidents as a cyclist than as a driver.
Not upset. Would just be good to have these arguments supported by some real facts rather than a load of anecdotal waffle and conjecture.
Anyone any ideas how to solve the "problem" whatever the problem actually is?
How about dedicated cycle lanes physically separated from car lanes by high kerbs or other street furniture?
Cyclists to have absolute priority on the roads.
Car drivers to have carte blanche to ride cyclists off the road.
Something else?
I did not say I refuse to cycle in London because it's too dangerous because of motorists. It is just too busy, full stop.
I find it no fun at all to drive in the place let alone cycle. As I said you need to take responsibility for your actions. While driving I make sure that things larger than me know I'm there. While I'm cycling I make sure things larger than me know I'm there before I do anything, this is because I take responsibility for myself.
i know as a driver how hard it is to see pedestrians and cyclists. It's a shame that pedestrians and cyclists seem to forget this.
i know as a driver how hard it is to see pedestrians and cyclists. It's a shame that pedestrians and cyclists seem to forget this.
It is not hard to see pedestrians or cyclists and, if driving a vehicle, it is your legal responsibility to make sure you are aware of what is going on around you and to drive accordingly.
I would not want to be a cyclist with you on the road...
Marky
ive read your replies and I can't even begin to waste my time to reply to you as I'd be here all night. Read what I actually wrote and not what you want it to say. Sorry if that's abrupt but the subject is too important to waste time on figures. One death is way too much be it driver pedestrian or cyclist.
Derry
i wish I new the answer. By its very means cycling is a way to get around the city quickly, but by doing this it means you put yourself in danger. I can honestly say I cannot take everything in around me whilst driving in the city centre, and I know I'm not the only one.
how many people have you seen walking, come to a crossing and just walk out. It's like everyone is in there own bubble. Well sorry bubbles burst especially by large metal objects
how many people have you seen walking, come to a crossing and just walk out. It's like everyone is in there own bubble. Well sorry bubbles burst especially by large metal objects
Enough to know I should expect it?
How many bubbles have you burst?
Personally if it was up to me I'd make the traffic single file. That way everyone has there space. But no bikes and cyclists want a lane one min the inside the next then outside the next and where possible the pavement.
why is it an offence for a car to undertake yet cyclists and bikes believe this to be acceptable. So many times I've been caught with bikes and cyclists on either side of me, neither can see the other, but they act as though I'm in the wrong.
I know as a driver how hard it is to see pedestrians and cyclists.
I just can't agree. When choosing to pilot 2 tonnes of steel that you know will likely be fatal to any cyclist or pedestrian in its path, you have an absolute responsibility to drive it in a manner that doesn't kill those people. Full stop. If you aren't prepared to accept this responsibility and drive in that manner, then you don't belong on the roads.
I just can't imagine what leads you to the conclusion that pedestrians and cyclists are "hard to see". (You don't drive near me, do you?)
I see cyclists riding without lights all the time. It annoys but does not endanger me, other than that it provides a convenient distraction from the discussion of the real issue which is motorists killing and maiming each other, themselves, friends, family, cyclists and pedestrians at an alarming rate.
Similarly, i also see cyclists riding on the pavement/footpath/sidewalk and running red lights all the time. Same deal. It doesn't endanger me in any significant sense (they "could" run me down, but they never have), but somehow seems to allow motorists to avoid addressing their own culpability. Incredibly, it seems to provide some sort of justification. Observing and pointing out sub-par cyclist behavior is a way of categorising, de-personalizing and ultimately discriminating against a vulnerable group of road users.
I cannot believe the statement above. So it is not an issue for cyclists to be on the road without lights or reflective clothing or that some jump red lights.
I never said that. I said that those practices are common but don't directly endanger me, other than that they seem to fuel hatred and even justification for aggressive motoring. At best they distract us from the real issues.