The War On Britain's Road - Drivers V Cyclists - BBC 1 9PM

Opposite to me. I avoid cycle paths (at least shared-use paths) wherever I can as I find them slow and dangerous.

Yes you do actually. If you are in the middle of the lane for no reason.

"Opposite to me. I avoid cycle paths (at least shared-use paths) wherever I can as I find them slow and dangerous." Now who is impatient ................

Dear Winki,

The truth is that most of the cycle paths in the UK are in far better shape than the roads nowadays!

There is an obvious limit to the speead you can ride on many cycle paths as the lines of sight are often not good, and some dog or pedestrian may well be just round the next bend. Or even another cyclist coming the other way. 

On normal rural roads and lanes the only speed limit is how fast I pedal the old cycle, and this an exhilarating experience of course!

I do look on a ride out for fun as being different to commuting,

I take extreme care now with motorists on the commute. Painted lines giving the cycles on the cycle path priority over motors are taken as not being there in my book! I just give way, which may confuse an attentive motorist, but those watching for other cars absolutely do not see the cyclists, and drive as if they had legal priority. This is not nearly so rare as you might think. Drivers rarely notice the lines painted on the road in my experience.

I don't think it is worth getting killed getting to work. Just set out five minutes sooner, and take more care than is strictly required in the lefal sense.

As i said earlier, I'd rather be thought a chicken on a cycle than be a dead correct one!

For fun riding, I choose the right roads, as the destination and journey times are not set by circumstances! Obviously the choices are for fun then. 

ATB from George

 A lot of cyclist do use paths. Reasons why they don't include:

1) The path doesn't go where they want to go

2) The path is clogged with pedestrians, joggers, recreational cyclists, dogs etc, and the cyclist just wants to get somewhere, rather than have the social experience of mixing with that crowd

3) The cycle paths are poorly designed with lots of bollards, narrow spots, blind corners that make cycling along them slow and frustrating

4) The cycle paths are designed so that they have poor priority at intersections

5) Cycle paths sometimes go the wrong way in one way streets or have both direction on one side of a street. This creates danger for cyclists by placing them in locations not expected by motorists

But mostly 1.

Well. You reinforce my point. Motorists are apparently so weak minded that I can force them to do dangerous things with the awesome power of my bicycle positioning. See why I say that things will never change. Motorists won't stop killing cyclists, but the real issue  (according to you) is that they can't. Powerless to change their behaviour. Wow.

I am impatient at times. Busy, too. And yes, I want to get where I am going with little fuss. But I don't kill people as a result. Motorists do. Mostly each other, but also cyclists and pedestrians. 1.2 million deaths per year.

Winky

My last post because this has got quite boring now, but you say you dont want to use cycle paths provided to you because pedestrians and other users hinder your way.

Yet you do not seem to accept that motorists may feel exactly the same about cyclists.

Yes yes im well aware that motorists kill more, but knowing this you still would rather put yourself in this position.

I will take the safer option every time.

Stay safe

I fully accept that motorists don't want me on the road and feel that I hinder their progress. I see evidence of this attitude every day. But I don't hinder their progress anywhere near as much as they do this to each other, though. The roads aren't clogged with bikes, they're clogged with cars.

They're not cycle paths, they're footpaths that bicycles are allowed to ride on. I think riding on footpaths (legal or not) is silly and dangerous. Much safer to be on the road, in spite of the motorists. Motorists are at least predictable:

1) They will never stop at a stop sign

2) They will always open their car doors without looking

3) They will break the speed limit at all times unless physically prevented from doing so

and so on....

But please do me a favour and let me know if you're planning on driving in Vancouver anytime soon. I'll stay in bed for the duration of your visit.

I'm no daredevil and very cautious on my bike. I'd rather live with some risk than join the masses of po-faced, angry commuters living in denial of their responsibilities whilst fuming and frowning in their mostly-stationary little tin boxes, though.

Dear Winky

Where I live the cycle paths are for cycles ... there are separate paths for me as a pedestrian. Often the cycle paths are along side the road and yet you see some cyclists using the road as if it were a race track. You see a lot of bad drivers too and no driver should drive in a way that could hurt anybody. 

The accident I had was when a cyclist who had dodgy breaks knocked me over when I was walking across a zebra crossing ... if he had been on the cycle path then it would not have happened. However, had it been a car I would not have been posting about it so I guess I was lucky. 

I understand exactly what George is saying in that it is not always possible to use the path and if the path doesn't go where you need to go then I understand this too. It is just when it is parallel to the road (an extra lane for the use of cycles) and still not used then I can't fathom why. They are not in bad repair and mostly empty. When I walk, I walk on the pavement, when I drive I stay on the road ... can't understand why the cyclist don't use the cycle lane. Yes they may be behind a slower cyclist, but patience is a virtue.

That said I always slow down to pass horses on the road and their owners are always very courteous and indeed most cyclists are ... so I'm not complaining about cyclists, just wondering why they don't take advantage of something the council tax payers (which includes them) have paid for to keep them safe,

>please do me a favour and let me know if you're planning on driving in Vancouver anytime soon. I'll stay in bed for the duration of your visit.

Fear not, I'll never do that as the motorists are quite dangerous in Canada. I went to Quebec and they were all driving on the wrong side of the road 

All the best, Guy 

Sorry to hear of your accident. Yes there are lot of dodgy cyclists out there. Poorly maintained bikes, too.

As I said, the paths I avoid most passionately are those where they really are just footpaths that someone has deemed as suitable for bikes as well. I avoid them to reduce the cyclist/pedestrian interactions (and dogs/kids etc). For this, I sometimes get abuse from motorists (who presumably don't walk anywhere).

The paths that are an extra lane painted on the street for bikes are usually great, and I don't mind using them at all. In fact, I always will if they are there where I am going.

But you need to be cautious, especially when they go the wrong way against traffic (as quite a few do around here) as that means cyclists are coming from unexpected directions for both motorists and pedestrians.

Another issue is that down-town,  many pedestrians treat them as an extension of the footpath and stand in them whilst waiting to cross the street. This is obviously worth watching for.

They are often right in the door zone, too. This means that to be safe, you have to crawl along peering into parked cars to ensure you don't get doored. I have to brake to avoid doors that have been opened in my path about 2 times a week.

Another hazard with these lanes downtown is that the traffic often moves quite slowly and motorists become frustrated (or so it seems). It is with trepidation that I'll pass stopped cars whilst in one of the lanes as you can bet that someone stuck in the queue will decide in exasperation to swerve into the bike lane to get to the next intersection for a right turn. Of course the use of indicators is entirely optional when doing this. I mean, with a Starbucks in one hand and cell phone in the other, who has a hand free to operate the indicators?

Often, it just seems I'm safer just to be in the lane with the cars.

Obviously I don't have any empirical evidence but I suspect that the percentage of motorists who are arseholes is about the same as the percentage of cyclists who are arseholes, and about the same as the percentage of people in general who are arseholes.

When not driving, these are the same people who would push into a queue/line, fiddle their expenses, or fart on aeroplanes. 

You notice their actions most when they affect you the most, or you are exposed to them the most, which is why cyclists take so angrily against motorists. As if 'motorist' is a type of person, rather than an activity that the majority of people do. The arsehole people* just do it badly or discourteously. But not necessarily more so than when they are on a bike, or in a queue, or an aeroplane.

The consequences of bad driving may be more potentially grave, but the same percentage of the majority is far more people and a lot more noticeable than it is of a small minority. They're just arseholes.

*Unless in France, of course, where it is compulsory for all drivers. And I have the evidence of my own eyes, and numerous bills from the carrosserie to show that.

Rod

Agree that motorists, cyclists and pedestrians for that matter are just a reflection of society.

Agreed with your comment that the same percentage of motorists who may harbour a bad attitude in general is larger when an absolute number due to the greater number of motorists in total.

However, I think there is another dimension. Most cyclists are a fairly happy bunch when they're cycling be it for commuting, recreational, training or sporting purposes. I don't think drivers are anywhere as near as happy - many seem frustrated, impatient and angry instead.

Rather than this just being the product of the numbers, one thing I note is that drivers seem dispirited by the disappointment of the illusion of a wonderful motoring life created by the car industry brands and its various mouthpieces in the press versus the somewhat different reality of over-congested roads, maintenance costs, fuel prices, other motorists behaviour, cyclists, pedestrians and traffic jams. The dream is shattered.

I grew up in a house where there were Haynes manuals everywhere. Bits of car engine being rebuilt in the living-room. A car washing / polishing session every weekend. In fact a whole weekend based around car use. At first this seemed great but now it seems a relic of a bygone 'golden age' of motoring.

Nowadays I do drive but avoid using my car whenever possible. Most would consider it a nice car but in my view It is a pain, expensive and driving in the South-East is just annoying. I do enjoy driving from time-to-time (around the west coast of Scotland perhaps or abroad) so I am not just some anti-driving zealot. However, on a bicycle I get fit or on a bus/train I can read the book/paper without stress. Even the shopping gets delivered now so the whole 4-hour plus trip to the cathedrals of shopping on a Saturday so beloved of the previous generation can be dispensed with. Not being in the car the whole time allows you to get on with the rest of your life.

Even for those concerned with the pyrrhic victory that is 'car status', they can only drive up to 70mph anyway, a large percentage of other drivers may think ill of them and people don't give way to them at junctions. Their car may do 160mph but so what? Not much use unless on a track day at a circuit. Perhaps their gnashing of teeth on the roads may be even worse.

Anyhow, I suppose my point is that whilst there may be the same % of people who are 'bad' whether drivers, cyclists or pedestrians, the drivers seem particularly uptight as their pursuit is generally the least enjoyable. Thus driving itself may tease out worse behaviours behind the wheel from the group of motorists than might otherwise be expected by an analysis of behaviours in society as a whole. In other words, it is the experience of driving itself that also contributes.

You do see cyclists who become annoyed by the actions of motorists but can anyone honestly say they generally see any people cycling with great anger? I have never seen this personally in many years. In fact, most cyclists who are into it as a hobby/sport nod or wave to one another as they pass. The spirit is quite different to that I experience behind the wheel.

I would think that is a reasonable starting point. But some due to their choice of transport cause annoyance, and some cause mortal danger.

The arsehole people* just do it badly or discourteously. But not necessarily more so than when they are on a bike, or in a queue, or an aeroplane.

*Unless in France, of course, where it is compulsory for all drivers. And I have the evidence of my own eyes, and numerous bills from the carrosserie to show that.

I strongly object to that. Perhaps you'd like to apologise for that kind of pointless, xenophobic comment?

Not really. Someone scratched my car in the supermarket not three hours ago. For about the eighteenth time since I moved here six years ago. Not something that EVER happened to me when I lived in London.

The single worst thing about living in France is that they are the worst, least courteous, most inept, dangerous, arrogant, selfish and rubbish drivers on the planet.

Surely it is no secret that the drivers of French vehicles are inordinately less kind to any other specie of human than others including Italian, Pakistani, the list is quite long, i suspect - than British motorists?

I have driven a motor in France and even in East Europe [and Scandinavia], never was more frightened by what might happen next ... THAN IN FRANCE.

I would not want to cycle in France ...

I am half Norwegian, and there drivers are observant, careful, and courteous to a degree that would shame even the British ...

Its a cultural thing. How selfish people are ...

ATB from George

I really like Italy. The driving is hair-raising though. Bizarrely they do try to give you room as a cyclist despite this. I think it is because it is a national sport and icons such as Coppi are still revered.

I have had similar experiences in France where on the surface of things driving is not as bad as in Italy and they also give cyclists some room on the whole.

I think on the whole the UK is worse than either of the above for attitude to cyclists on the road even if not for the overall danger of driving.

That said, it is hard to generalise.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/us...-20121213-2bcoc.html

It could be much worse. In the US, proponents are arguing for the right to bring guns to work. One of the key arguments? You need a gun for protection during your commute! I think they are serious. It is in the Sydney Morning Herald, but reads like a piece from the Onion.

"The law's proponents say the measures are needed to protect staff during commutes. They say employers who ban guns on their property are preventing workers from possessing weapons when they commute, leaving them vulnerable to attack."
 

I wonder if motorists would give me more room if they knew I was "carrying" .

To rodwsmith

Sorry, I didn't really expect you to apologise.

It would be most unusual for anyone to apologise for their own boorishness.

As a motorist, I would be inclined to mount machie guns alongside the headlights  of my car, and simply act first if I even thought some sadistic cyclist had a gun that he/she might use. 

Cheers

Don

Cycling is the only sport the UK is consistently good at these days.

You'd think this might lead to some pride in cycling.

Oh yeah? Then I'd have a rocket launcher and grenade thrower!   

Part of the enjoyment of motors for the average bloke used to be tinkering with them

With the advent of electronics controlling everything the only option is to take them into the dealer so that you can be fleeced once more. What a surprise that the car industry has pioneered this.

Tinkering with bikes is endless fun on the other hand.

Yes! I cleaned a re-lubed the shift cables and derailleurs on my long-suffering commuting bike this week. Shifts like a good thing now. Smooth as silk.

About as likely as French person apologising for, or leaving a note about, criminally damaging your property because they're not very good at driving, as it transpires.

I fixed it for you.