HiFi vs Music- a comparison

Posted by: Ron Toolsie on 13 January 2013

I follow four forums that have both Hifi and Music rooms. In three out of the four there are many more postings about hifi than the music. I admit that to truly get emotionally involved in the music it takes both great gear and great music. But at the same time people who are passionate about the gear should also be passionate about the music. It is all well and good for an epicure to obsess over which type of flatware and china plates to scoff the haute cuisine with, but without at least an equal emphasis on the food, it does become rather pointless. 

 

Here are some very rough ratios of Hifi:Music postings between those forums

 

Naim   4:1

PF   1.5:1

Linn (if you group together DS, LP12 and General Hifi threads)  6:1

Steve Hoffman   1:4

 

Now I know that each venue attracts a different subset of people, but I would have expected there to be greater parity between level of interest in the hifi and music dialog. And certainly it is easier to discover new music through discourse than new hifi. 

 

I would have put this in the Music Room, but nobody would have read it  This is not a criticism, merely an observation. Do we care too much about hifi, or too little about music? 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Bart
Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

I follow four forums that have both Hifi and Music rooms. In three out of the four there are many more postings about hifi than the music. I admit that to truly get emotionally involved in the music it takes both great gear and great music. But at the same time people who are passionate about the gear should also be passionate about the music. It is all well and good for an epicure to obsess over which type of flatware and china plates to scoff the haute cuisine with, but without at least an equal emphasis on the food, it does become rather pointless. 

Small point of order -- I'm not so sure it's appropriate to be telling others what they "should" be passionate about, or that their 'hobby' is "pointless." 

 

Now that that's out of the way . . . I don't find it out of the ordinary that fora sponsored by hardware manufacturers get mostly posts about hardware.  The Porsche fora get far more posts about the cars than about driving techniques and nice scenic or twisty routes to take, combined.

 

I rely on the Hoffman fora as well as the Music Room here to find new music.  My classical collection has grown a bit, mostly from reading the Music Room here and posts by George and others.  I don't "know" the music and the variations enough to really comment on them, but have appreciated reading others' opinions and then buying the music and hearing what they are talking about.  I've also gotten quite a few tips about 'new' music here; not all to my liking, but why should it be?

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Derry

I don't purport to claim ro know what most people are motivated by.

 

For myself, I don't really care what music other people like any more than I would expect them to like what I like. If there is a post with which I have some resonance, then I will respond, otherwise i will simply read.

 

This forum seems, to me, very much to do with equipment and has a clear, if unstated, hierarchy.

 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture where the object is to climb the ladder which no doubt meets naim's expectations. IMHO of course.

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by Derry:

I don't purport to claim ro know what most people are motivated by.

 

For myself, I don't really care what music other people like any more than I would expect them to like what I like. If there is a post with which I have some resonance, then I will respond, otherwise i will simply read.

 

This forum seems, to me, very much to do with equipment and has a clear, if unstated, hierarchy.

 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture where the object is to climb the ladder which no doubt meets naim's expectations. IMHO of course.

That's a controversial view, Derry, but I suspect one that contains an awful lot of truth. Unfortunately.

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by BigH47:

Lord E

 

But then again, so many of the posts are interminable lists, with little description, and often by people whose tastes seem to have moved on very little for about 40 years and which hold no interest. I frequently resolve to look and post there a bit more, but after a while I lose interest again. I must try harder!!

 

Did I miss the memo about having to move on my musical tastes?  

 

 

 

 

I'm thinking of the sort of posts that seem to suggest that music begins and ends with Dark Side of  the Moon - 'I've already got 200 copies of it and now there is a new version where the sleeve is woven from Orang Utan hair and it's remastered in 5000 bit definition' and everyone says 'wow, I have 200 copies too but I'll buy it nonetheless instead of trying something new'. 

 

I used to love Uriah Heep when I was 12, but now think it's awful. Similarly, a lot of Punk I listened to when I was 16 I now cannot stand. I now love European jazz and baroque music, which I didn't when I was 14. Times and tastes change - at least, mine do. 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by osprey
Lord E, seems that you only followed the fashion when you listened to Punk if you can't stand it today. You know - Punk never dies. The fact that I love my Punk records still today does not prevent me to enjoy classical music also (as I did already when I was 16 although back then it had to be secret). And yes I give my Uriah Heep records still a spin once a year.
Posted on: 14 January 2013 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by osprey:
Lord E, seems that you only followed the fashion when you listened to Punk if you can't stand it today. You know - Punk never dies. The fact that I love my Punk records still today does not prevent me to enjoy classical music also (as I did already when I was 16 although back then it had to be secret). And yes I give my Uriah Heep records still a spin once a year.

I didn't say that I don't listen to punk records today - just that I don't like all of what I used to. As an 11 year old schoolboy I absorbed all sorts of stuff, some stayed, some was filtered out as powers of discrimination grew. I rather like following Bobo Stenson by The Ruts, and Gesualdo by Nick Drake.

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Ron Toolsie

Derry, 

Yes, I can agree with you on this point. 

 

I would hope to think that we all are passionate about the gear *because* we are passionate about music, and the electronics are simply a means to an end. And in this source-first world I would be nowhere without my CDS3 or NAT01. What I cannot fathom is how a piece of advice that says 'try **** CD/LP' is studiously ignored when it can cost anywhere from $0.00 (YouTube) to maybe $20 (LP) to try out, yet people are freely tossing out advice for what $10,000 component to get, many of which have not even used, or even heard them. The problem with audio recommendations it sometimes reduces to dogma and conventional wisdom, without the valuable insight of someone who has actually *tried* it. 

 

I understand that musical tastes are more subjective (for instance I can say that Iggy Pop>>>David Bowie) in way that does not translate to audio facts (do not try to convince me or anybody else that the NAT03>>>NAT01). But at the same time if I can convince somebody to try out the very beautiful album 'Where it Goes' by Lori Carson that is within the reach of every single person who reads this forum, then why should that be less valid than saying 'Oh, the $28,000 NAC552 blows the 252 into the weeds' which does not help 99% of forum members who cannot or will not afford 'even' the 252. 

 

And why alienate users of 92/90 because they are perceived Children of a Lesser God. They maybe have sacrificed more to get the 92/90 than some of us did for a 552/500? A query which power supply to use with a CD3.5 attracts no attention, yet the OP may be more in need of some advice than someone pondering whether to for for a used 555 or a new 555DR. And honestly, how many of us had 555 vs 555DR experience? And even then, there is no consensus, so one opinion is as valid or as invalid as any other one. 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Guido Fawkes
Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth:
 

I used to love Uriah Heep when I was 12, but now think it's awful. 

Oh no - I think you should Look at Yourself. There must be some Daemons and Wizards at work to make you think that, still I think I can at least be Very 'Eavy, Very 'Umble and urge you to listen again on your system, which I think comes from Salisbury as I predict that if you do enter that Wonderworld then before the Magician's Birthday, you will Return to Fantasy.   

 

BTW what is European Jazz?  

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by spartacus
Originally Posted by California Jim:

I rarely look at the Music Room or look at the posts of what people

are listening or the concerts they go to.  Hearing from someone

about what group they like means nothing if you don't know the

person, and I need to HEAR music to know if I like it.  So I listen to

Radio Paradise, for example, as a listening sound board.  I have

heard so much music there over the last two years which has

inspired me to learn about the musicians and buy the music.  My

musical tastes have broadened further with that knowledge.

By the same token, I have no interest in sharing in this forum my

likes and dislikes...once or twice maybe.

What this forum does provide is a wealth of information on hi-fi

matters and I have benefited from it greatly.

 

California Jim

I'm with California Jim on this one, I listen to eclectic radio stations like Radio Paradise, BBC 6 Music... but I also get music cues from other places. Like friends, dealers, walking into a shop and they are playing something I like the sound of, browsing record shops (yes some still exist),  browsing online stores and listening to the snippets of music. But sometimes I find I don't like something on 1st hearing then hear it again at some other point/mood and like it. In fact some of my most played music are of the "slow burner" variety e.g they didn't get me the 1st time round but they've grown on me.

 

By the same token I don't pay much attention to the "System Pics" thread either. The kit is for playing my music.

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Bart
Originally Posted by Derry:
This forum seems, to me, very much to do with equipment and has a clear, if unstated, hierarchy.

 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture where the object is to climb the ladder which no doubt meets naim's expectations. IMHO of course.

Hi Derry,

 

Many internet forums engender such a culture, and IMHO can support a compulsion to keep purchasing.  I've seen the same on other forums about other "luxury goods" I could call them.  Hey at least "unboxing" posts are not common at all here! So to some extent I'd say it comes with the territory.

 

Me, personally -- I don't detect the hierarchy stuff, but I likely am more oblivious to it than most.  What I do appreciate is the contributions from those who know a lot more than I do, and from those who have different experiences over a long period of time, or with different brands and technologies, etc etc. 

 

And given that UPnP based streaming is so fraught with difficulty and complexities (*cough*), having recently gone through them myself with the aid of others here I try to 'give back' and help those also just getting their toes into that ocean. 

 

Overall -- no one here I'd not have a pint with!

 

Cheers,

 

Bart

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by 911gt3r
Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth:
Originally Posted by Derry:

I don't purport to claim ro know what most people are motivated by.

 

For myself, I don't really care what music other people like any more than I would expect them to like what I like. If there is a post with which I have some resonance, then I will respond, otherwise i will simply read.

 

This forum seems, to me, very much to do with equipment and has a clear, if unstated, hierarchy.

 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture where the object is to climb the ladder which no doubt meets naim's expectations. IMHO of course.

That's a controversial view, Derry, but I suspect one that contains an awful lot of truth. Unfortunately.

Hi Nigel.

We seem to be getting the gist of Derrys views by now. I am a little surprised you are jumping on the band wagon re this, as you yourself are never shy in coming forward re your own 'cheaper' system and how much you are enjoying it. A statement that several forum members including myself have expressed our respect for !? ATB Peter

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by Derry:

 

This forum seems, to me, very much to do with equipment and has a clear, if unstated, hierarchy.

 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture where the object is to climb the ladder which no doubt meets naim's expectations. IMHO of course.

There's a stong element of truth in this, just ask Consciousmess, for example.

 

However, from what I can judge by the variety of posts across the forum, this ladder-climbing for ladder-climbing's sake, is fairly limited. Most upgrades that are broadcast seem to be related to enhanced musical enjoyment, even if there is the occasional bit of snobbery attached in a few cases.

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Derry

Peter

 

Derry is expressing an opinion. Dunno about Nigel nor what your intention is in mentioning him.

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Ron Toolsie

I must say...Uriah Heaps 'Salisbury' is a corker of an album. I saw them live in Tennessee a couple of years ago, and they could still rock out. See....it is possible to make a post in the Hifi form without mentioning a 500 series piece of gear! Or did I just do that????

 

Right now I am listening to an Abba album. Really. Abba was really no less (and no more) cheesy that most of the Beatles, and shared with them extremely well arranged/produced/engineered catalog laden with saccharine hooks that will long outlive any Sex Pistols/Clash stuff. And when reproduced on decent electronics is totally gripping. But you know what...I was totally hooked 40 years ago when I heard them on an AM radiogram. So, really does the quality of replay matter that much??? I would much rather listen to Abba on AM radio than The Smiths on Isobariks (and yes, I have heard them on the Isobariks). 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Ron Toolsie

Derry, 

I respect your opinions..but are you Berlin Fritz reincarnated. He is the only other member who referred to himself in the third person, and his postings were always entertaining, obtuse and provocatory. 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Hook
Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

Derry, 

I respect your opinions..but are you Berlin Fritz reincarnated. He is the only other member who referred to himself in the third person, and his postings were always entertaining, obtuse and provocatory. 

 

Ron -

 

In Derry's defense, my buddy Speedo, formerly of this parish, also regularly used and abused the third person present tense.  Who could forget his memorable last post from October of 2011....

 

"...Speedo have a Roksan Xerxes 20 Plus and he be wondering if grub screw would be on top of the armboard or underneath?  If it be underneath, it be difficult for speedster to access it..."

 

Now dems wuz 'da dayz. 

 

Hook

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Ron Toolsie

Hook

Apologies..it WAS Speedo I was thinking of. Berlin Fritz was equally as idiosyncratic, but in different ways. 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by 911gt3r
Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

Derry, 

I respect your opinions..but are you Berlin Fritz reincarnated. He is the only other member who referred to himself in the third person, and his postings were always entertaining, obtuse and provocatory. 

What you just said, 'entertaining and provocatory' immediately reminded me of Stu and I would like to join SteveJ in expressing my sadness that Stu is no longer on this Forum, because not only was he mad in a lovely way and on occasions made me spew my coffee over the keyboard, but there was always a warmth to read between the lines. Yes, i miss him hands down................! I just find it sad , the way PCness is now creeping in here with no apparent counter weight...............! ATB Peter

PS. Ron, allow my to thank you for your comments/advice on my thread based on your previous experience, and I would like to think, that this is what this forum is about at every level............?

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Don Atkinson
Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

Hook

Apologies..it WAS Speedo I was thinking of. Berlin Fritz was equally as idiosyncratic, but in different ways. 

innit

 

Cheers

 

Don

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by Hook
Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

Hook

Apologies..it WAS Speedo I was thinking of. Berlin Fritz was equally as idiosyncratic, but in different ways. 

 

I'll let him know you were thinking of him next time we meet up for a pancake breakfast! 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by George Fredrik
Originally Posted by graham halliwell:

George said:

 

I don't enjoy or relish discussing relative merits of music or performance, which is quite a hobby for some people I do realise. To me I'd rather spend the time listening to it than discussing it ...

 

 

are you sure George?  Community rank Nr 10?  I have the impression you love discussing music and recording.  Not that there is anything wrong with that .............

 

Dear Graham,

 

Quite right. I do, if it helps to encourage someone else to also enjoy it.

 

What I don't like to do is say discuss the differences between a Klemperer performance with another one by perhaps Furtwangler. I prefer to just enthuse about the one I love the best, and possibly explain why in an absolute sense rather than a comparative way!

 

I am truly embarrassed by being ranked at 10 on the Forum. I cannot believe that I have made that much contribution over the years. Most of it complete rubbish I expect though.

 

ATB from George

 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by George Fredrik

Dear Hook,

 

I remember SPEEDO, and miss his posts. They used to make me smile very much!

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by George Fredrik

I think Ron is raising some interesting points. 

 

It is quite difficult, because I have been on the receiving end of a certain amount of snobbery here. Comments along the lines that I must be keen on hairs shirts and so on.

 

Well I am not a self-flagellant in respect of replay ... and definitely not of music!

 

No less hairy shirt speaker exists than the ESL 57! Nor less hairy shirt music than that of JS Bach, Joseph Haydn, and a host of others ...

 

ATB from George

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by Ron Toolsie:

 

 

 I would much rather listen to Abba on AM radio than The Smiths on Isobariks (and yes, I have heard them on the Isobariks). 

Ooh, now that's below the belt!!!!! Had you ever seen The Smiths live, before their first album ever came out, and loved them ever since, you would surely acknowledge that they are the best band ever.

 

Which rather proves the point I think you were getting at in the first place - it's got to be music first, otherwise why does anyone bother?

 

I love Guido's post about Uriah Heep, but they are still rubbish!!

 

Now where were we - I have three Naim boxes and only one Snaic, my dealer is an idiot, what on earth should I do? Is this more interesting?

 

Posted on: 14 January 2013 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by 911gt3r:
Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth:
Originally Posted by Derry:

I don't purport to claim ro know what most people are motivated by.

 

For myself, I don't really care what music other people like any more than I would expect them to like what I like. If there is a post with which I have some resonance, then I will respond, otherwise i will simply read.

 

This forum seems, to me, very much to do with equipment and has a clear, if unstated, hierarchy.

 

Respect comes from what you have not necessarily what you know. It engenders a competitive or aspirational culture where the object is to climb the ladder which no doubt meets naim's expectations. IMHO of course.

That's a controversial view, Derry, but I suspect one that contains an awful lot of truth. Unfortunately.

Hi Nigel.

We seem to be getting the gist of Derrys views by now. I am a little surprised you are jumping on the band wagon re this, as you yourself are never shy in coming forward re your own 'cheaper' system and how much you are enjoying it. A statement that several forum members including myself have expressed our respect for !? ATB Peter

I'm never one for jumping on bandwagons, but it is true, I think, that those with big systems and deep pockets seem to inhabit a higher place in the Forum's eyes that those of more modest means/aims. People aspire to those systems - rather like wanting to be like the popular boy /girl at school. Nothing wrong with agreeing with Derry on that.