HiFi vs Music- a comparison

First, let me say to you, Richard, that I am ashamed that as the administrator of a site ( which sponsors that site and presumably funds it as well,) would be so crass as to feel it your right to protect the good name of your company.  I mean...how dare you, Sir!   Next, to Tonym, I will say that by God, I will continue to envy systems like yours (when I read darke bear's profile, I turned bright green and nearly fell off my chair!)  But in all seriousness, while I may envy your system, I will never dislike you for having had the means and the will to assemble it.

I have sounded like a raving lunatic at times, I know, by injecting a modicum of political discourse into some of my posts on audio.  The direction this thread has taken is an indicator of my reasons for doing so.  In my own country, for five years now, a majority has bought into, hook, line, and sinker, the proposition that the "poor" should not only envy--but penalize--the "rich" for having accumulated more than they.  There was some justification for such sentiments in the Russia of 1917, but even then, the well-intentioned actions of the have-nots backfired and it took some 70 years to begin to try to climb out of the crater that resulted.  I will not go into how this will now take the form of taxation that will not only fail to defeat the deficit but will in fact have the deleterious effect of killing the goose that laid whatever golden eggs the goose formerly laid.  I realize many--including some of the so-called "rich" may disagree with this, and I respect your opinions.  But the major point is that it has long been the fashion for those who, through whatever combination of bad luck, bad planning, or bad execution, have failed to accumulate wealth to dislke those who have--again, for whatever reasons.  I personally went to school for 10 years and had a very lucrative law practice--which I gave up in favor of a solid, lower-paying, secure job, where I would not choose to get through the day with stress and alcohol.  My choice.  So if I ever bitch about some of you being "richer" than I am, I expect you to climb on an airliner, (first class, of course) , and fly over here to kick my ass.

Politics both reflects, and encourages (through the demagoguery of the left, and the defensiveness of the right,)  the precisely the sort of division of opinion we see in these fora.  It is fine to look at someone elses possessions and wish we had the means to obtain them.  It is not fine to attack them, either frontally or by snide asides.  To my way of thinking, incivility and meanness of spirit has no place in any conversation, whether face-to-face or online.  So many of both the little digs and the open nastiness that one sees (fortunately seldomly) on these fora are similar to drive-by shootings--in the sense that, were the meeting face-to-face, it is entirely possible the "shooter" would have neither the gall nor the guts to pull the trigger. 

Personally, as Richard has said, it is a broad church.  I don't really mind someone being uncivil--whether it is through envy or just plain nastiness.  If it gets too bad, I just never talk to the person again or read anything by or about him or her.

Best regards,

Russ

Dear John,

You visited me when I had the CDS 2, 52, 200, and SBLs, and even then you rightly picked up on certain aspects of my "big" system. Though it was very good, it was not quite right either.

But what you write above in the first line is very true in my view. My current system is not nearly so fine as what you heard those six or seven years ago, but it is more satisfying in the sense that though it is less ambitious in scope what it does incorrectly is that much less obvious! Both systems - the "big" old one, and my new little one - certainly gave and give me immense musical pleasure, and I know which I prefer. I have my perfect system in my house now.

One day I hope that you will be able to listen to my music through my old ESLs, much as I did through your ESLs before deciding that the memory of them had not played me false, and so then I got them for myself!

ATB from George

I really don't understand the assumptions that are being made about how wealthy people are or are not based solely on what system they have.

Is it beyond comprehension that some (most) people do not spend all of their disposable income on climbing the naim (or any manfacturer's) ladder?

Going back to the topic: hi-fi vs music.

In order to render adequately a full symphonic orchestra, does hi-fi system require different qualities than to play compressed pop music, for instance?

If that is indeed a valid question, then personally I would find interesting to see hi-fi being discussed more often in reference to the GENRE of music played on the system...

It'd be great to have you back, Mick, the forum is not the same without you. 

I agree. I, for one, have only spent 90% of my disposable income on climbing the naim ladder, the rest I just wasted. 

Me too ... put me down for a download to the Kindle. 

I, too, am very sadden by that ... it should never happen that way. If nobody aspired to the best Naim could offer then there would be no incentive for Naim to improve what they do ... and I'm confident they will bring out even better systems. 

We all benefit for purchases of 500 series equipment because it is the profit made on that sale that helps fund research in to the systems in the less expensive range that many of us including myself enjoy. 

And Naim has listened to folk who are not convinced streaming is for them by bringing out a new entry level CD player and I quite wonderful looking new DAC. 

Of course, Naim would like you to buy their products - but having overheard various vendors talking to dealers, I have to say Naim is as good as it gets ... they are interested in having happy satisfied customers irrespective of what you buy from them .... the focus is not as it is with some: how much money can we make. 

So I'm delighted people enjoy top notch systems (I worry if the tone was don't buy a 500 series component it is not very good). I find it interesting to read what people with those systems try in order to improve them further. I shall probably never own such as system, but somebody having a better system than mine doesn't make mine or anybody else's system less enjoyable. 

The other day I played a MFSL recording of the Moody Blues EGBDF on my MacBook through its very basic built in speakers ... and it sounded wonderful, the best reproduction of that very fine record I have heard ... I am fortunate that I can play this on my main system to hear even more from it and I'd love to hear it on a top of range system. 

So no reason for any sniping at anybody for owning a system whatever it is ... they use it to play music and surely that is what counts. 

And please don't stop spending with Naim ... if it disappeared then I think we would all be very sad indeed - it is certainly the best kit I have ever been lucky enough to own. 

Alamanka,

I would say that a system that is very good at communicating the music will do so with any music.

In terms of creating a believable illusion of reality rather than musical communication I would say that some systems can do this much better with, for example, classical music rather than rock or pop. Someone who listens exclusively to rock music will likely have tailored their system to sound as realistic as possible with this, and chances are it will not fare as well with orchestral music. On the whole though it is perfectly possible to assemble a system that performs well on all genres of music, but such a system may not excel with any particular genre.

Peter

Fascinating thread.

It's all about the music for me as for pretty much everyone I'm sure. I'm happy with my system, and shy away from the hi-fi forum because I feel I have little or nothing of value to contribute, and in case it  causes me to contract upgradeitis.

I visit the Music Room and often buy things in the basis of well written reviews and comments. But I love discovering new things and would rather occasionally buy a record that I listen to only once if it means that sometimes I discover a whole new thing or band or style. I also buy stuff on the basis of newspaper reviews and the Amazon "you may like" thing. For some weird masochistic reason I usually don't try to check them out advance on Youtube or similar, because I rather enjoy the surprise and the 'need' to play the music because I have invested in it. When I think of all the great things I have discovered this way that have given, and continue to give, me pleasure, the odd disaster is a small price to pay. I wouldn't want to spend my whole life ordering only what I knew I liked in restaurants for the same reasons.

I take part in the Padded Cell mainly because I live abroad, and so the chance to exchange comments in English is useful and gives me a sense of home. I'm fine having conversations in French, but it's difficult to strike them up with strangers. There are some very strange people in the Padded Cell, and many of them speak English. But it does seem a lot quieter than it used to be.

I'm about to spend the thick end of two grand having my amplifiers and two hi-caps serviced. When a colleague asked me how much this was costing, I lied. It was instinctive. Being embarrassed at how much this hobby costs is as sure a sign that it's time to settle down with what you've got, as needing a drink first thing in the morning is that you've got an alcohol problem I reckon.

I'm not sure I know personally anyone who would even contemplate spending £2000 on a music replay system, let alone paying that amount simply to have bits of it serviced, and I know a lot of people vastly richer than I am.

I'm sure my boxes will come back sounding better, and it's long overdue, but part of me hopes a thorough recapping won't constitute so much of an improvement that I start longing after big numbered boxes I simply cannot afford. I'd prefer to spend the money on buying musical risks on the basis of nice cover art. I'm not sure my ears or living room warrant more hi-fi, but I know the former craves, and the latter can fit (just about), more music.

I do find it quite laughable when certain individuals assert their 'I'm a reasonable person' credentials while simultaneously presenting the rest of the populus as made up of two polarised groups.  They readily identify themselves as rather egotistical and narcissistic. It is the Naim forum so all members should have some affinity for the brand and, dare I say, a shared bond. Taking the world population into account, then like it or not, if you own Naim equipment (new or pre-loved) you are rich. How rich is actually a little irrelevant.

As to the original question. Might I suggest that the different ratios simply highlight the problem of using simple statistical analysis to explain a particular phenomenon. Personally I see my purchase of Naim equipment as secondary to listening to music. However without Naim I didn't enjoy listening as much. So the two are interwoven. A love of music drove me to purchase Naim, but Naim ownership drove me to love music more, which drives me to love my Naim....  

Andy

Hi Osprey -

Thank you for your kind words.

Hook

+1.  Well said Andy.

Hook

I don’t resent anyone here for what they have, and I don’t care how anyone here spends their money, except for me.

Yes, this is spot on and reflects my position too.

I have built up a number of personal friends on this forum over the many years I have been a member. Each and every one is a pleasure to know, whether they have a Nait, one or two classic or olive components or a whole rack of 500 series stuff. Its all about sharing the joy of music, and the added pleasure of that music when played through our Naim kit. 

Dear Mr Fawkes, the next time you're in Ipswich and feeling rather depressed after the Tractor Boys have blown a home game (although things seem to be looking up on that front I believe) you'd be very welcome to trot along here (I'm only 20 minutes away)with your MFSL copy of one of the Moodies' finest & we can pop it through my system. You'd be very welcome and we could brew you a nice cup of tea.

J-E,

Given that you are a journalist and HiFi reviewer don't you think your post is a little pompous and patronising. After all if I put you in front of an MRI scan and asked you to interpret the images you would find it hard to give an intelligible response. Obviously we have an interest in HiFi and more insight than you would have with the scan but we are not professional journalists like yourself. In general I think most people describe their system changes well. You also infer that the problem lies with those with higher end systems. Doh? I'm sorry we're not up to your standard. 

George,

I've been away a few days so am just catching up on posts here.

I hadn't realised that Hoopless had screwed up the back catalogue of posts to this extent. Its a real shame.

Cheers

Don

I often wonder why people "edit" their posts.

In my case its usually to recitify spelling mistakes, omissions, etc .

In the above case it was to remove my translation of "its a real shame" into "American" for the benefit of Hoopless, who might otherwise overlook the matter so rightly highlighted above by George.

Cheers

Don

Chaps

This is a really good thread and congratulations to all who have contributed.

My views on this subject remain the same as when I first came across this forum.

There are several questions and I will answer each one.

1.  What makes Naim equipment so special.

The simple answer is that it just effortlessly communicates the music like nothing else on earth. You forget all about the hardware, the music comes out of the speakers and right inside your inner soul.  Others have tried to copy and they have failed miserably. Musically speaking, there is only one name and that is Naim.

2.  Why do people buy the stuff.

Another simple answer (or answers) - Naims quality is unsurpassed, the sound is fantastic, the customer service is second to none, the stuff seems to last forever and you can get it repaired decades after you bought it. This is a musical partnership.

3.  What makes Naim unique - the upgrade trail.  You can buy at the bottom and stay there, you can slowly upgrade as time and money permit or you can short cut and go straight to the top. You can mix and match old chrome bumper stuff with the very latest kit without any problems at all and Naims engineers have taken the guesswork out of cables and stands. You just buy the stuff and can relax and enjoy it.

4.   It is one of the few manufactureres where you can talk to the people who make it via the forum. This relationship has been proven to work, you can give them a pat on the back or have a good old moan, it is all listened to and that's why we have the best hifi in the world.

5.   The second hand values remain high.  You can buy stuff today and sell it on years later and quite often get your money back. So when you think about it, you have listened to brilliant music and in the long term it has cost you nowt.  You can't say that about Sony or Pioneer etc.

6.   I have a 32.5 from the eighties. I have kept it maintained and even though it is near the bottom of the range, it sounds better than 99% of other systems on this planet.  So if you are at entry level, you are still doing ok.

Some people said Naim would sink when JV died back in 2000, but the reality is that things have gone from strength to strength. Naim now (like then) has a band of followers that other sales managers would sell their wives and daughters for. Those customers are loyal because Naim delivers day after day for years on end.

You got your Naim, bloody play it and enjoy it.

Regards

Mick

Steve,

Like our sound systems, we have our off days. Yesterday was not a good one, and I apologize if the tone was not as I intended. I’m honoured that you would consider me as a professional journalist, but I'm not. I write because I enjoy it (usually...) ; the pay is miserable, but I get to listen to equipment that I might never otherwise encounter. I need music and Naim is the least expensive means I’ve found for experiencing it in my home… compared to hiring musicians.

Best regards,

Jan

Thanks Mick, a perfect summary (apart from pt. 5 with regard to CD players).

We all have bad days J-E. I've had a bad week with my back, allergic rhinitis making me sneeze causing lack of sleep and my wife has had 'woman' flu (worse than man flu of course). Think no more about it. I will endeavour to be as descriptive as possible in the future.

ATB

Steve

For a moment, I thought Meredith was serious.

The trouble is, that word "sanguine" has more than one meaning.

Cheers

Don