A Plebiscite on the EU in the UK?

Let's dismantle this oppressive EU regime. Let's close borders. Build walls. Let's throw away all immigrants. Bring back all customs taxes. This will solve all problems for sure.

I'm starving. I'm going to spend some money in one of traditional Polish grocery stores around the corner named.... Tesco .

T.

Nowthis part of your post looks attractive and worthwhile.

I appreciate the rest was said tongue-in-cheek !

Cheers

Don

Oh I thought you meant ... Aldi 

But it's quite sure that Scotland doesn't want to leave the EU either. Quoting from the Guardian:

But while Farage's party gets record poll ratings south of the border, in Scotland they barely register. Ukip lost its deposit in every seat it contested in Scotland in the 2010 general election and the 2011 Scottish election. At the last European election in 2009, Ukip moved into second place UK-wide in its share of the vote. In Scotland, it came last – behind the Tories, Liberal Democrats and Greens.

Aldi, Kaufland, Carrefour, Jeronimo Martins, Makro, Real, Auchan,......

I know, that's why I put the following into my initial post :-

I can now see the posibility of Scotland desperately trying to join the EU whilst the rest of the UK is trying to leave.

What a joke this business called "politics" really is ! The EU have suggested that an independent Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU. I'm surprised that the French haven't suggested that the "rump" of the UK ie England, Wales and N. Ireland wouldn't likewise need to re-apply.

Cheers

Don

You are right, I quoted the wrong part of your post.

So we leave the EU and have a country run by thugs, bully-boys, psychopaths, sacked policemen, security guards, sacked security guards, ratialists, anybody-bashers, rear Admirals, queer admirals, Vice Admirals, fascists, neo-fascists, crypto-fascists, loyalists, neo-loyalists, crypto-loyalists. Is that you you want? Because that's what'll happen.

We need to work within Europe to make it an even better place. Forget the past, it's all history .. Yesterday has gone ... We need to work with our friends across Europe to sort things out so life is even better than it is now. So let's hang on in there because the best is yet to come.

I often wondered why we didn't outsource our Government to say Slovakia where labour costs are much less that way we could reduce the cost of Government. We could make big savings on my local Goverment and i feel confident the Romanians who live not far from me would make a much better job of running the Council than the current incumbents do and for a lot less ... Lazy they are not, they set up a car washing business, do a good job and make a decent profit now it is in full swing ... Some of the locals who moan that they haven't got work were not prepared to do anything like that. 

And the Greek folk invariably arrive bearing gifts so i'm all for helping them out as i'm sure they would do the same for us.

So let's all rejoice, we have no choice, but to carry on.

I don't think it will ... Should we not be building bridges rather than walls? 

what's the difference between democracy and majority-nism?

I very much agree with Don's views and the second paragraph of Guy's.

On the Scotland issue, I think Mr Salmond faces quite a few problems in both seeking independence (from England) and at the same time wanting Scotland to be an independent member of the EU.  This thread is not about the pros and cons of Scotland independence so I shall save my views on that issue for another day, but for an independent Scotland to have membership of the EU I think Mr Salmond's best hope is that the UK leaves the EU and his newly independent Scotland applies to be a new member of the EU (timing all wrong so not an easy option).  However if a newly independent Scotland seeks recognition as a member state while the rest of the UK is still a member I would expect a number of other member states to veto Scotland's application because of their own domestic tensions. For example, would the Spanish government in Madrid support Scotland's membership when to do so could likely stir Catalonian ambitions for similar treatment? I suspect not.

Fortunately, I think there are enough Scottish voters with more common sense than Mr Salmond for this situation to materialise. 

MDS     

Democracy is a very bad form of Government, but all the others are so much worse.

Problem with referenda is that people often vote without really understanding what they are voting for. It is worsened when propaganda comes in to play coupled with nationalistic jingoism and i'm afraid to say some people are conned. Would anybody seriously want a UKIP MP? Any way it won't happen 'cos Nick Griffin's lot will split what little UKIP vote there is. 

It is good to see forum members have a favourable view towards our union with our friends and neighbours in Europe. 

Democracies govern through majority rule, but preserve the people's right to change the majority through elections. It is how democracies prevent the majority from abusing it's power, and violating the the basic, inalienable rights of minorities.

In theory a full referendum is more "democratic" than voting by representatives but in practice the British public have been fed a constant diet of misinformation about the EU by the media which are largely owned by a few very rich people with their own agenda.

Quite frankly the attitudes and opinions (which are not distinguished from real news or "facts) put forward by organs such as the Daily Mail make me ashamed to be English. (I have no problem with the Daily Telegraph which is equally anti Europe). It's a real dilemma as it sounds so patronising to not trust the views of the majority of citizens but until there is democratisation of the provision of information, I think the current representative version of democracy is the least bad option. 

FWIW I am extremely pro European and feel very much at home in France and Spain though I have no wish to live anywhere other than England. I always enjoy meeting people from other countries and  I have no problem at all with pooling of sovereignty or freedom of movement.

Pev, I totally agree with your views about the press - all of them.

But as I have said earlier I do have worries about the sound common sense of the British public prevailing.  Even if we do have access to unbiased information, how many citizens can fully understand it?  I for one have tried, (I have an MSc in Policy Analysis for what it's worth), and find it very difficult.  If my life depended on making the right decision (and arguably it, sort of, does) I would have to go to a specialist, just like I would in any other arena of life.

You don't say things like "I fully rely on the man in the street having enough common sense to know whether his house is worth buying."  No, you hire an architect.

Now getting unbiased simplified specialised advice on the health of the EEC is another matter.  But lets at least better define the problem and our requirement before reaching for the voting pencil.

Don   sunny and windy downtown York

i have trimmed my original post in order to simplify and clarify why I don't think a referendum on the EU is sensible.

The basis on which the UK proposes any EU change is a separate issue. We need to recognise that in any discussions with the other EU members there will be diferences and self-interests flowing in all directions. No discussion will be easy.

If a referendum does take place, I would like to see :-

• Mandatory voting
• A third option (in addition to "yes" and "no") along the lines of "insufficient information to make an informed decission".         If this 3rd option attracts a majority, the referendum is repeated after further attempts by politicians to enlighten us, until "yes" or "no" wins.

Cheers

Don

Gosh. That 3rd option is an interesting one, Don. A new twist, on the "don't know(care)' box used in opinion polls.  I think they'd have to put the polling stations in supermarkets and make voting part of the weekly ritual of buying the groceries. And the process would probably go for ever because most people would keep forgetting the "information" they were given the month or so before!

MDS 

Might make the politicians sharpen up their act ?

Cheers

Don