introducing an appropriately priced av amp?

Posted by: Gooders on 16 February 2013

My first posting.....

I plan to introduce  an av amp into my system to make best use of a pioneer 91 blu ray player which is currently only delivering stereo - but I am unsure as where to pitch from a price/ brand perspective - wishing to attain  a quality play back but mindful that the current amp arrangement  will be driving front left and right. System is an "olive" NAC82, Hicap & current model NAP 250 through Linn Keilidhs.

 

Very much welcome any thoughts

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by SB

I would avoid Yamaha.  The grounding techniques they use (or used to use) doesn't work well with Naim. I went through a very time consuming exercise trying to integrate my first Naim Amp (NAIT 5) with a Yamaha receiver. Ground loop hum. Gave up and switched to Denon in the end, which worked (and still is working) with no issues.

I will caveat my response by saying this was about 10 years ago, so Yamaha may well have changed their design since then.

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by Gooders
Originally Posted by SB:

I would avoid Yamaha.  The grounding techniques they use (or used to use) doesn't work well with Naim. I went through a very time consuming exercise trying to integrate my first Naim Amp (NAIT 5) with a Yamaha receiver. Ground loop hum. Gave up and switched to Denon in the end, which worked (and still is working) with no issues.

I will caveat my response by saying this was about 10 years ago, so Yamaha may well have changed their design since then.

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by jobseeker

You don't give much detail about 5.1 or 7.1 etc or a budget. However, you may wish to consider a separate processor and amplification. You may also get more comments if you posted in the Home Theatre section.

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by Gooders
Thank you SB. I have no experience with an AV system - Is there an expectation that the quality of the centre speaker out-put should at least come close to matching that of the front L&R, where-as that from  the rear and sub (if used) are less consequential? -the reason behind this question is that intuitively a single box that undertakes many activities compared to three dedicated Naim boxes is likely to come up short in the sound quality stakes
 
 
Originally Posted by SB:

I would avoid Yamaha.  The grounding techniques they use (or used to use) doesn't work well with Naim. I went through a very time consuming exercise trying to integrate my first Naim Amp (NAIT 5) with a Yamaha receiver. Ground loop hum. Gave up and switched to Denon in the end, which worked (and still is working) with no issues.

I will caveat my response by saying this was about 10 years ago, so Yamaha may well have changed their design since then.

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by Gooders
Thank you. Your point is noted - I will re-post. to answer your Q - 5.1 and no more that £2K on the receiver -so a single box I guess
 
 
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

You don't give much detail about 5.1 or 7.1 etc or a budget. However, you may wish to consider a separate processor and amplification. You may also get more comments if you posted in the Home Theatre section.

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by Richard Dane

I've moved this to the Home Theatre room.

Posted on: 16 February 2013 by jobseeker

I know that you already have a Blu Ray player. However, with a budget of £2000, you may wish to consider the Oppo 105 Blu Ray player at £1000 as a combined player and AV Preamp. That then still leaves you £1000 for the power amplification. You will see a thread on here about it a little further back. It depends on what connectivity and functionality you need though.

 

Alternatively, the Audiolab 8200AP at £1200 may be worth considering as a pure audio processor, plus power amplification. The only caveat there is that your BD player must be capable of transcoding DD and DTS Hi Res soundtracks to 5.1 PCM via HDMI. Most players will do that though.

 

To be honest, there are quite a few avenues open to you with that budget. You would be able to find a s/hand or maybe late ex-dem NAP V175 three-channel power amp for the centre and two rears if that took your fancy I suppose. I guess finding a timbral match for the centre is important, so someone with knowledge of your Olive kit may be able to offer better advice.

 

Moving into AV always has little frustrations and a bit of a learning curve in some respects too

Posted on: 17 February 2013 by rackkit
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

I know that you already have a Blu Ray player. However, with a budget of £2000, you may wish to consider the Oppo 105 Blu Ray player at £1000 as a combined player and AV Preamp. That then still leaves you £1000 for the power amplification. You will see a thread on here about it a little further back. It depends on what connectivity and functionality you need though.

 

Alternatively, the Audiolab 8200AP at £1200 may be worth considering as a pure audio processor, plus power amplification. The only caveat there is that your BD player must be capable of transcoding DD and DTS Hi Res soundtracks to 5.1 PCM via HDMI. Most players will do that though.

 

To be honest, there are quite a few avenues open to you with that budget. You would be able to find a s/hand or maybe late ex-dem NAP V175 three-channel power amp for the centre and two rears if that took your fancy I suppose. I guess finding a timbral match for the centre is important, so someone with knowledge of your Olive kit may be able to offer better advice.

 

Moving into AV always has little frustrations and a bit of a learning curve in some respects too

 

A £2k budget would be enough for an AV2, Olive 250 for centre (using just one side) and NAP 90 for the rears. n-Subs have popped up for as low as £600, so would probably need a bit of a of a budget increase. Not a single box solution but it would sound great. 

Posted on: 17 February 2013 by jobseeker

Any BD player would of course need multi-channel analogue out to feed the AV2 in order to utilise the BD soundtrack HD Audio codecs. I know many people very much respect the audio qualities of the AV2 even now. I can see how it might well sound rather better than many of the AV Receivers around, where we are paying for a lot of features and video processing that many of us don't need, rather than paying for a concentration on all-round audio quality.

 

Some people would say that if you're spending that amount of money, you should end up with an up to date solution that properly processes DD THD and DTS MA though. Having said that, I'm still doing it the analogue way into a Meridian G61, but I'd probably look for an up to date solution if I were spending now. Still, it would have to give me better sound or there's no point.

Posted on: 17 February 2013 by Gooders
 
Thanks Jobseeker and Rackkit.  "A bit of a learning curve" over-estimates my knowledge. I am interested in sound quality over features - The BD player (I believe) possesses decent dacs for each channel  - If I went down the AV2 route;- would I be missing anything fundamental in processing current disc formats? - DD THD DTS MA - what does this bring to the mix?
 
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

Any BD player would of course need multi-channel analogue out to feed the AV2 in order to utilise the BD soundtrack HD Audio codecs. I know many people very much respect the audio qualities of the AV2 even now. I can see how it might well sound rather better than many of the AV Receivers around, where we are paying for a lot of features and video processing that many of us don't need, rather than paying for a concentration on all-round audio quality.

 

Some people would say that if you're spending that amount of money, you should end up with an up to date solution that properly processes DD THD and DTS MA though. Having said that, I'm still doing it the analogue way into a Meridian G61, but I'd probably look for an up to date solution if I were spending now. Still, it would have to give me better sound or there's no point.

Posted on: 17 February 2013 by jobseeker

It's only my opinion, but I would certainly want access to the high definition soundtracks of Blu Ray if I were implementing a multi-channel solution. They are substantially better than the lower resolution vanilla DD and DTS equivalents and part of the Blu Ray experience.

 

Therefore, if utilising an AV solution like a Naim AV2 or a Meridian G61 (like me) or many older AV amps/receivers which do not have HDMI, you need a Blu Ray player with 5.1 or 7.1 analogue outputs on the back. The Hi Def sound is decoded in the player to multi-channel analogue and then sent to the matching inputs on your, say, AV2. Purists will say that it isn't going to get you the best experience compared a dedicated HDMI solution, but it's still pretty good if your player and processor can do their job well. I kind of consider the Audiolab 8200AP as the up to date spiritual successor to the Naim AV2, albeit that a Naim version would have had perhaps some more attention to build and detail, but at a much higher price of course.

 

The AV2 can certainly do it's job well, so any weakness would be based around how well the digital to analogue conversion was done in the player. The video aspect of even cheaper players is pretty good with Blu Ray discs these days, but some players may lack something in the audio department in terms of conversion (many of the cheaper ones simply don't have the facility anyway), so your choice of player becomes a little more important if you go down this road.

Posted on: 17 February 2013 by SB
My system is primarily for two channel listening and that is were most of the budget has gone. My AV side is more just for enhanced TV sound and a few DVDs rather than a full blown Home Cinema, so I can't really comment.
I will leave the response for those more dedicated to AV.
 
Originally Posted by Gooders:
Thank you SB. I have no experience with an AV system - Is there an expectation that the quality of the centre speaker out-put should at least come close to matching that of the front L&R, where-as that from  the rear and sub (if used) are less consequential? -the reason behind this question is that intuitively a single box that undertakes many activities compared to three dedicated Naim boxes is likely to come up short in the sound quality stakes
 
 
Posted on: 17 February 2013 by Gooders
The AV2 option sounds interesting:- the BDP player concerned is a Pioneer LX91 (£2K machine) and so should be up to the task -   production has only recently ceased, without any obvious successor.
 
your input has been very  useful  - thanks again.
 
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

It's only my opinion, but I would certainly want access to the high definition soundtracks of Blu Ray if I were implementing a multi-channel solution. They are substantially better than the lower resolution vanilla DD and DTS equivalents and part of the Blu Ray experience.

 

Therefore, if utilising an AV solution like a Naim AV2 or a Meridian G61 (like me) or many older AV amps/receivers which do not have HDMI, you need a Blu Ray player with 5.1 or 7.1 analogue outputs on the back. The Hi Def sound is decoded in the player to multi-channel analogue and then sent to the matching inputs on your, say, AV2. Purists will say that it isn't going to get you the best experience compared a dedicated HDMI solution, but it's still pretty good if your player and processor can do their job well. I kind of consider the Audiolab 8200AP as the up to date spiritual successor to the Naim AV2, albeit that a Naim version would have had perhaps some more attention to build and detail, but at a much higher price of course.

 

The AV2 can certainly do it's job well, so any weakness would be based around how well the digital to analogue conversion was done in the player. The video aspect of even cheaper players is pretty good with Blu Ray discs these days, but some players may lack something in the audio department in terms of conversion (many of the cheaper ones simply don't have the facility anyway), so your choice of player becomes a little more important if you go down this road.

Posted on: 17 February 2013 by jobseeker
That machine should serve the purpose well. Good luck with the quest.
Posted on: 19 February 2013 by rackkit
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

It's only my opinion, but I would certainly want access to the high definition soundtracks of Blu Ray if I were implementing a multi-channel solution. They are substantially better than the lower resolution vanilla DD and DTS equivalents and part of the Blu Ray experience.

 

Therefore, if utilising an AV solution like a Naim AV2 or a Meridian G61 (like me) or many older AV amps/receivers which do not have HDMI, you need a Blu Ray player with 5.1 or 7.1 analogue outputs on the back. The Hi Def sound is decoded in the player to multi-channel analogue and then sent to the matching inputs on your, say, AV2. Purists will say that it isn't going to get you the best experience compared a dedicated HDMI solution, but it's still pretty good if your player and processor can do their job well. I kind of consider the Audiolab 8200AP as the up to date spiritual successor to the Naim AV2, albeit that a Naim version would have had perhaps some more attention to build and detail, but at a much higher price of course.

 

The AV2 can certainly do it's job well, so any weakness would be based around how well the digital to analogue conversion was done in the player. The video aspect of even cheaper players is pretty good with Blu Ray discs these days, but some players may lack something in the audio department in terms of conversion (many of the cheaper ones simply don't have the facility anyway), so your choice of player becomes a little more important if you go down this road.

I picked up a used Denon DVD-3800BD Blu-ray Player sometime ago based mainly on reviews about it's analogue output performance. I have it hooked up to my AV2 using Flashback Premiere DIN to RCA cable as well as a Flashback Performance Digital Co-Axial cable and find the differences between the two fairly small and probably prefer the sound of the AV2 processing than the Denon overall even though the player is delivering the full HD sound v the core HD through the digital Co-Axial. 

 

Posted on: 19 February 2013 by Gooders

Thank you Rackkit. Clearly a second hand version is the only AV2 option and in truth I am warm to this. Are you aware of any reliability issues ? would an older version require a re-cap or any other type of maintenance?

Posted on: 19 February 2013 by rackkit
Originally Posted by Gooders:

Thank you Rackkit. Clearly a second hand version is the only AV2 option and in truth I am warm to this. Are you aware of any reliability issues ? would an older version require a re-cap or any other type of maintenance?

The only thing that might need doing is having the latest firmware installed. I think Naim can send the bits needed to your dealer so they can carry it out as it's meant to be quite simple.

 

I've not had any reliability problems so far and the only problem will be tracking a used one down. Like buses, they seem to come up a few at a time, then it goes quiet again but stick with it and one will eventually come up. I've seen them as low as £450 and up to £1000. Mine cost me just over £600 2-3 years ago and is the best value bit of Naim kit i've bought so far.  

Posted on: 20 February 2013 by jobseeker

I do know of an AV2 and partnering NAPV175 from a trader in the south of the UK at sensible prices, so they are 'out there'. Obviously I don't think I can say any more on here, as it would break the rules. Maybe I already have

Posted on: 20 February 2013 by Gooders

Thank you both. 

Posted on: 21 February 2013 by rackkit
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

I do know of an AV2 and partnering NAPV175 from a trader in the south of the UK at sensible prices, so they are 'out there'. Obviously I don't think I can say any more on here, as it would break the rules. Maybe I already have

Maybe Gooders could provide a contact email in his profile for a few hours to 'help out' with his search?

 

Just saying like.

 

;0)

Posted on: 21 February 2013 by jobseeker

Am I allowed to say PFM ?

Posted on: 21 February 2013 by rackkit
Originally Posted by jobseeker:

Am I allowed to say PFM ?

Perfectly Fair Methinks. ;0)

Posted on: 21 February 2013 by BigH47

 Premiata Forneria Marconi ,not sure why you would mention them in this context. 

Posted on: 21 February 2013 by Tony2011

Live in USA. Great album

Posted on: 02 March 2013 by Gooders

Jobseeker & Rackitt.  Have placed a deposit on a used AV2 and 175( local naim Dealer) and will buy subject to an audition - Your coded message was far too clever for me, but thank you both all the same