Bristol Show Demo and Ripping
Posted by: Eloise on 25 February 2013
I was reading elsewhere that at the Bristol Show, Naim demonstrated that a rip via the UnitiServe sounded different to rips from XLD on a Mac. Does anyone have any details?
Eloise
PinkHamster,
No confusion here, maybe its at your end when you read my post using a different brain codec. But then you aren't the only one.
A file is just a file? Well its a change from bits are just bits I suppose. Good to see another rodent anyway.
Andy
It would be the slimiest snakeoill ever, if anybody claimed that there is an audibile or any other difference between the two.
I heard the dem. The two rips clearly sounded different (both to me and my deeply sceptical professional sound engineer mate).
(FWIW we thought the non-Naim rip sounded fuller and better, both times.)
haha funny thread well done is a 1 a 1 and 0 a zero
??
What have conceptual boolean logic symbols to do with this??
Boolean loved it ha
Same ol' story. Some people still like to be fooled though, it seems.
A perfect rip is a perfect rip.
iTunes, XLD, EAC, dbPoweramp, US, all provide perfect rips, it´s been demonstrated plenty of times before. Search the forum FFI.
Do all rips sound the same? To some they do, to others they don't. Same applies for all lossless formats such as FLAC, AIFF, WAV, ALAC, etc.
Even some NDS/252 level system owners can't hear a difference. Others can.
IMV there are three distinct scenarios:
1st Naim streamers
2nd SPDIF into DAC
3rd USB stick
All different.
IME SPDIF into DAC is largely file format agnostic. Streamers may be different, but then it's Naim who have optimised their streamers for WAV. Nothing to do with one being superior to the other. Linn use FLAC, no issue there, it seems.
At the end of the day differences, if at all audible, are negligible in the grand scheme of things. Maybe <5% of SQ?
Personally, stopped worrying about file formats a long time ago. But then my set up is SPDIF into nDAC.
US is a convenience thing more than anything. Fine, if you are happy to spend the money. But it has shortcomings as well.
Just my 2 cents and IMHO of course
tp
TP +1 
"Do all rips sound the same?" To Naim they don't, it seems.
If only they had compared WAV to WAV or plugged the memory stick into the server. If they had done, the difference would have been smaller (Phil Harris confirmed this in the past) at least. I have a US already so it's all the same to me. Those who don't can spend £2k + elsewhere in their system and achieve a greater improvement, I suspect.
k
Those who don't can spend £2k + elsewhere in their system and achieve a greater improvement, I suspect.
Well put and this is the crux of it, really. It seems to me a lot of people simply accept the official line and believe what dealers are telling them without testing things out for themselves. There may be many reasons for this but bottom line, the US ain't cheap and, if sound QS is of premier importance, greater gains can be had by investing in other sections of the replay chain. Source first, yes, but this doesn't extend to the US in equal measure, not on a SQ return per Pound scale anyways.
BUT, it's a lovely piece of kit, which facilitates ripping for many folks. I'm sure it's also a joy to use. Mind you, there have been numerous cases though of people who became rather frustrated with it because it froze / broke down on them, to the point where they decided enough was enough. At the end of the day, it's just a PC with nice software in a classy case.
K, I have yet see Naim officially say that for a rip without errors, which is most unless you have faulty hardware, or faulty CDROM that is encoded as WAV, that the Naim rips sound different.
I think Naim have said the Naim ripping solution is controlled and so the user is less likely to make errors , but assuming the user competently rips and the hardware/CDROM is not broken then they are the same and it's simply a choice of method and approach. Being pedantic the ripped files are different as Naim does not use any of metadata constructs in the header, but the sample data or PCM is identical.
Anyway it matters not... as TP said the blind testing and file decomposition analysis took place on this forum, I know I did the software decoding.. And there were no differences what so ever in the sample data between a variety of rippers and encoders including Naim.
If anyone wants to believe there are differences, then it's a free country, but I politely request they keep it smuggly to themselves unless they have some empirical data they wish to share, because if nothing else it's somewhat irksome to those that have shown in their own time for the benefit of forum users there is no difference observed, heard, measured or analyzed.
Simon
Well said Simon
Late to this thread as on Hols at the moment. I recall the same demo was done at the Dublin show, and the Naim guys were quite clear at demonstrating that the 2 tracks sounded different, but specifically did not claim one better than the other, just different.
Reading the arguements above, yofactoid favour either camp, but it's worth considering WHY naim have taken this approach to their shows. Maybe they see that the public are trending to computer rips and not getting the market sales they expected on their products, and trying to react to this. But I guess that is just being cynical. For what it's worth the demo in Dublin clearly showed a difference in sound from the 2 files.
Hi Cbr,
Too cynical, I think. They wouldn't stoop to that and they don't need to. The US is bloody brilliant and doesn't need underhand tactics to sell . Its main advantage is convenience, but I totally get that some achieve convenience more cost effectively.
Still, it is interesting that Naim are choosing to highlight rip differences at their demos, isn't it? They know this is contraversial stuff.
Keith
K, I have yet see Naim officially say that for a rip without errors, which is most unless you have faulty hardware, or faulty CDROM that is encoded as WAV, that the Naim rips sound different.
Paul Stephenson said on this thread
"Easy naim rip via our server easy db and eac good but our rip and our drive choice usually outperforms"
If that's not officially claiming naim rips outperform others, what is?
No-one from naim has ever put up their dbpoweramp or eac rips for scrutiny.
K, I have yet see Naim officially say that for a rip without errors, which is most unless you have faulty hardware, or faulty CDROM that is encoded as WAV, that the Naim rips sound different.
Paul Stephenson said on this thread
"Easy naim rip via our server easy db and eac good but our rip and our drive choice usually outperforms"
If that's not officially claiming naim rips outperform others, what is?
No-one from naim has ever put up their dbpoweramp or eac rips for scrutiny.
The plot thickens!
Some perfect rips are more perfect than others! Or possibly not!
Not something that inspires faith in it really! It could be time to get out of the madhouse, and get on with more interesting things, like the undoubted qualities of a Brooks B 17 saddle. And yes, these really do run-in!
ATB from George
The rips sounded different to me as well when I heard them at the Tom Tom 10th birthday event, but it's a million miles from a scientific test. The US WAV rip was second, it was an unfamiliar track and it sounded better - Psychoacoustics?
The US is a great bit if kit, but its strength is convenience and simplicity for those who don't want to dabble in the complexity of getting perfect rips from a PC or MAC platform.
As has been said before - if you are computer savvy, rip away with whatever floats your boat, and use your technical skills supported by the likes of Accurate Rip to double check. If all this is a mystery, trust in Naim and let them take away the complexity and buy a US...
Naim streamers like WAV, so transcode on the fly using your preferred uPnP server.
.......and just enjoy the music ffs!
Dave,
That's why i use the HDX, keep it simple and easy, focus on enjoying the music
Whenever these debates pop up the silence from Naim is deafening. I think Simon accurately reflected Naim's position on the approach to ripping - the rest is FUD IMO
I use my US to rip, sounds great easy to use and play my music more, listen to albums i forgot i had and for me ripping in wav was important, i don t want the hassle of ripping to PCs Macs, Naim gave me this solution, as usual go to a dealer not a show, play what you want and how your music is stored then make a decision, I am up to about 612 CDs stored, Still have a CD5XS but hardly use any more since US but will still keep, all I know is I play more music now thanks to Naim and am sold on streaming, cant wait to add a Naim Dac when I can afford it, and possibly upgrade my amp later,but meanwhile on with another album Happy Mondays Pils and Thrills, followed by Supertramp Things never Change, then if Time some Ray Charles Good Night all
If supposedly perfect and identical rips sound different according to hardware/software used then is it really anything to get worked up over? This sort of thing has been going on for decades. I am willing to bet that no two supposedly identical cartridges or LP12's sound exactly the same. No big deal. The reasons are really only of academic interest. One is likely to experience a difference several orders of magnitude greater according to one's mood when listening to music.........
Peter
Sorry if this question has been answered before.
Are there measurable differences in noise and jitter in the output of different hard drives dependent on the quality / selection of hard drive and the software controlling the writing (ripping) and the reading process? And could the output from the US ripping / streaming solution streamed directly from the US hard drive from its original location in anyway be "cleaner" or jitter / noise freer than a rip of the same cd created and streamed from a typical PC solution? If yes, can this in anyway have an effect on any part of the network and network connected hi-fi leading to an audible difference at output signal of amplifier?
I ask this because Paul Stephenson may have meant that a naim rip can outperform when the original US-rip is streamed from the US itself, and because I once read an article about the way files are stored to hard disk. Apparently the magnetic "impression" made for each bit of information never quite gets recorded in exactly the location intended, which is supposedly one of the reasons why applications for permanently deleting files overwrite at least 5 times. If a file is only overwritten once, and the process doesn't place the new "impression" in exactly the same place, the original file can be recovered. So, if there are these inaccuracies during the writing process, they could cause differences in noise during reading (?) minimized by selection of hard drive and software controlling the writing process (?).
PureReader,
jitter is introduced on entering the DAC during playback. This is completely detached from the writing process of the file. When streaming over a network there is also no influence of the storage device which is serving the data on jitter.
When you are streaming, jitter is a matter of comunication between the network module of the streamer and the DAC.
Maximus, I agree with you completely. The US is a life transforming product! The simplicity of ripping, combined with the abilities of the Nserve App, really does connect you anew to the music. But not just you, it also opens your entire collection to your family, friends, etc. I am very impressed with the less than 1% unrecognised CDs (so far, 6 out of 800 ripped). My only gripe so is that the year of release is not stored among the data.
Meant to say also that Ripping is a bit like 'Knitting for men'!