Margaret Thatcher 1925-2013

Bullying? OK.

For your information I was never a "Thatcherite" - my politics has always been based around one-nation Conservatism and free-market liberalism - I maintain that Lloyd-George and Asquith were the true reformers - and if you read further up the thread you will see my agreement for Nick Clegg's assessment of Margaret Thatcher.

We elect our MP - sorry I wasn't aware of that - mind you after President Blair and First Lady Cherie it's an easy mistake to make.

Come on Debs -  on political issues you go for the kill I merely challenged your premise.

Bruce,

You are correct in that mista h is not in question here and i don’t know why you suggested he is.

But my comments on Widdecome are based on facts and the truth, can’t see where any bitterness on my part comes in, and i certainly have not abused her, i wouldn’t touch her with a barge pole.

Debs

Ah Lady Cherie Blair........what a delightful lady sorry thing.

Mista h

It was good.  One thing though I always find strange is this assumption that by focusing on the individual I always assumed that to be personal responsibility and I find it strange that people associate that with selfishness. True in the 80s individual attainment and wealth took on greater importance but that can't be a bad thing - can it? Funnily enough in contrast I can recall the student loan riots back in Dec 2010 and this young lady screaming at the TV news camera "I have a right to an education" Urm yes you do until 16 (18 now) and then you have a responsibility to go to work and make a contribution. That I thought truly was selfish - the State should pay for ME to go to University.

Well I must say that if Mrs T has been reading this thread from Hell or Heaven (depending on your perspective) I suspect she'd be mighty pleased to see that after all these years she can still generate such passionate and for some polarised debate.  She was never one for the middle ground. I think we probably owe Tony2011 a thank you for kicking it off.

MDS     

The scourge of Arthur Scargill and his blackmailing attitude to the british public in his desire to destroy as much as possible of uk industry seems to have been forgotten. He along with most of his buddies were still drawing their salaries, paid for by union members fees to the union, while the members were out on strike. It was an interview of Scargill where the interviewer asked him if he was still being paid his salary that was the start of the end of the strike action.

I read in a clasic car magazine recently that the Unions at Aston Martin had managed to negotiate minimum times to perform tasks on vehicles. A race mechanic was working on a vehicle to get it repaired for a race. he removed a gearbox in 20 mins to effect the repair. he was almost blackballed by the union as they had managed to get the job up to 4 hours for the task he completed in 20 minutes. It was conduct like this that made it almost impossible to manufacture anything in the UK at that time. And working at a large engineering company at that time i watched as the unions systematically tried to destroy the company.

So change was necessary in UK industry and it came as a direct result of the Govt of the day.

I found it amusing that friends who were militant in their jobs did not understand that the Union did not employ them, it was the company that the unions were destroying that employed people.

Multi national companies went over seas and many jobs were lost to this alone.

Also many Brits bought foreign made goods also putting themselves out of work

There was a comedy at the time depicting a worker wanting to know why he did not make something in a factory anymore. To be told nobody bought the finished item was a shock to this worker. Especially as he enjoyed making the item. Do not remember what the program was but could have been Not the 9 oclock news or similar.

Margaret Thatcher was not the Govt, but the Prime Minister of the Govt. This Govt was elected 3 times so obviously many many peopole were happy with it. But then again i have to reflect on this being true of President and 1st Lady Blair. A public School Educated Champagne Socialist Multi Millionaire and reluctant tax payer. Funny as his Govt postulated 90% income tax for rich bastards (but i ssuppose not for him )

It is still a funny world

David

I voted Con at the last election and TBH i aint got a clue who my MP is(you only see them when they want your vote).The reason i voted Con was because i thought Dave C was the best person available for the job. If he had been a Labour man chances are i would have voted Labour. NO WAY could i give my vote to that dragon Thatcher. MY view is that its very important to have a good captain steering the ship. I know a lot on this M/B will shoot me down,but i think he is the best available to run Great Britain PLC.

Likewise the reason Naim or similar companies do well is because the head honcho is good at his job. In football you only have to look at Portsmouth FC to see what happens if the top man aint up to the job.

Trust you had a restful nite Debs !!

Mista h

Crony capitalism is never a good thing.  Balancing national budgets on the backs of the poor, the disabled, and the elderly is never a good thing.  Trickle down economics has always been, and will always be, a scam.

History will be the judge of both Thatcher and Reagan.  Those few that benefited from their policies will romanticize their legacy, while the vast majority will mark the 80's as the decade where the middle class of both countries was dealt a horrible blow, one from which they have never recovered.

Don't agree with that at all Hook. Never saw it as crony capitalism more popular capitalism. No one is more middle income than me. During the 80/90s I felt I was taxed relatively fairly, had disposable income and a very good standard of living and whilst there was inevitably things I didn't agree with I thought they were broadly on my side - basic income tax came down from 22p to 23p.  After 12 years of Labour I receive a considerably higher income but am taxed to oblivion - crippling NI, disadvantageous income tax thresholds, crippling fuel taxes, council tax doubled during their stay in power.  I guess it's how you see things but that's my reading.

While Thatcher was PM I loathed and detested everything she did, said and stood for. The time to celebrate was when she stood down. Now she is gone, I feel nothing, apart from concern over the use of public money on her funeral when there are so many more important priorities. 

I agree entirely with regard to the funeral.

+ 1 as I said people forget

Mrs T became PM in 1979. To understand fully the situation at that time one really has to have been politically aware for at least ten years before, witnessing the decline of the UK both economically and internationally. This probably means being around 30 when she took office and thus perhaps 60 or so now. Some may disagree, of course. However, I believe many of those passing judgement now  cannot fully understand what the UK was facing and what she had to change as they were not there.

Of course one has sympathy with those who suffered the adverse consequences of the changes she brought about, but things would have been much worse had we carried on as before.

However, there is, I believe, little doubt that the problems for UK industry have been made worse by the way in which China has taken over as manufacturer to the world. Western governments generally have been happy to go along with that; it kept inflation low and 'exported' our own carbon pollution, but it also exported a lot of our unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. Sadly, the time is upon us when the folly of this is all too apparent, as we become beholden to the Chinese and their accumulated cash surpluses.

You really don't understand mining. Do you realise what happens when a coal mine is closed ??

Are you talking about shafts collapsing or flooding? I said above it is not beyond the wit of man to mechanise the process of mining.

Crossrail is not dug with picks & shovels (or old dynamite).

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/n...work-in-a-coal-mine/ 

But no I'm not a mining expert. You could not pay me enough to be one; I truly detest sumps when potholing. So I would never ask someone else to do such a hard dangerous task.

Good post your lordship,spot on.

Mista h

Arthur Scargill was a foolish man, but where on earth do you get this blinkered view ?

As has been commented upon in this thread, the Trade Unions in the 70's and 80's were far too strong and needed to be sorted out. Their power needed to be clipped.  However, this did not mean that the entire industry needed to be destroyed.

 The British mining industry was one of the most modern, efficient mining industries in the world - yes, some mines which were ALWAYS making a loss needed to be closed (note that coal mines often are profitable at some times, unprofitable at others, due to the size of seam, ease of extraction etc.), but many (such as the ultra-modern mines in the Selby region of Yorkshire) were extremely  profitable ALWAYS and did not need to close. The decision to close these mines was simply political, not economic.

The result of Thatcher's slaying of the mining industry was that 250,000 men were made redundant (the vast majority not being mad, left-wing activists, but actually normal guys) which led to whole villages/towns/regions being devastated and a real effect on literally millions. However, on the whole these were working class people, who meant nothing to Maggie or to the middle/upper classes. They didn't vote Conservative.

A great number of innocent peoples' lives were destroyed because of Thatcher's fear of the Unions after the collapse of Governments in the 70's. She however didn't give a damn.

People who know nothing about the British mining industry and just want to rant about Scargill should really keep quiet. Although incurring much abuse, Debs comments earlier pretty much hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Wugged woy, 

As an ex miner and engineer for some years, i do know mining and i understand your views on mine profitability, but you have not mentioned the fact that the uk tnd to wok deep mine systems, with all its added costnd complications, whereas other countries like down under tnd to work open cast mine systems that are much lower cost base or extraction ( and more detrimentl to environments). This i th real key o th closur of the uk mines, and was not political

Paul

The rules are flexible, certainly 1/2 mast on the day of death & the funeral. The days between are a personal choice.

Yes lots of people have flag poles & balconies & windows; it allows people to show allegiance to their homelands, etc. in a grey World I think it is lovely IMO.

I'm glad someone has some common sense regarding this

With respect Paul, why close mines that were always profitable ? I don't think open-cast mining ever entered Maggies head !!  - the greater threat to the British mining industry was the possibility of cheaper foreign imports from countries that either subsidised their mining industries  () or used child labour or both...... Now, let's be serious, Maggie was out to destroy the industry.

Ww, I think our seams are deep, so open cast is not an option, unless you are talking about sea coal. In which case I agree.

However that is hardly open to the atmosphere; but you may have a point as it burns beautifully clean but doesn't quite have the oomph of mined coal.

How many mines were closed in the 15 years before MT came to power?

She never chose the War, just the battle, timing & location. The same as all the best Generals.. IMO

Here's an interesting FACT about man of the people and working class hero A Scargill.

He was involved in a dispute in the High Court last year whereby the NUM were seeking to revoke a life tenancy he granted to himself whilst president of the NUM over an expensive property - paid for of course out of the subs of union members.

I'm only thankful that when it comes to elections, the people who think he was on the right side of the argument with Mrs Thatcher are in a small minority.

Olly 

UK car manufacturing broke all-time export records in 2012, with volumes sent overseas exceeding 1.2 million, up 8% on last year. From the SMMT website.

Who thinks this would have happened if this man

were still in a position of influence in the British motor industry.

A rhetorical question, as obviously we wouldn't have one.

Olly