Margaret Thatcher 1925-2013

It was actually cheaper to ship coal from Oz than to extract it from uk deep mines. Things do change over time as technology alllows extraction in more efficient manners. The resources will still be there for our future generations to rework.i used to work in mines With a seam of just 12 inches high ( god that was clostraphobic), and up to 8 foot seams with nuclear steered machines. Developments will some day retun the mines to operation

I dont genuinly believe MT ( or anyone) really wanted to destroy an industry and all its employment, but as other posters have said, its all about moderating the powers of the unions ( and equally the governments of the day)

The same issues impacted the car industry, the print industry, etc

Equally we could argue of the damage done by the likes of Hutton and red ken

You may blame this man (and the unions) for wrecking the UK car industry. What about the shockingly poor management of the period (and beyond).

It's no coincidence that the car industry is booming now that they are all foreign owned. The German, Indian and Japanese run companies succeed, using the same British work force, where British management failed miserably. Remember the last time that British management tried to run a car company. Oh yes - the Phoenix consortium that screwed over the Rover company and it's workers, plundering the company for vast profit (to themselves).

"The report, which was only concerned with dealing with the directors and their actions while MG-Rover Group was still trading, revealed that the five executives involved took £42m in pay and pensions from the troubled firm before it collapsed."

+1 from me.

I really think the funeral arrangements are a major misstep, and on a brader view have increased polarisation in the UK in precisely the way she fomented.

Bruce

Bruce

Redmires

The Phoenix 4 are not a group of people I would ever support or defend, but they are hardly representative of British management - are you suggesting they are?

I also don't doubt there was complacency among much management of British manufacturing during the 60's and 70's, in particular a complete disregard for the satisfaction of their customers.  Attitudes we still see today in the financial services industry and in much of our public services, unfortunately.  

Nevertheless, you're right I do blame union activists for much of the damage done to this country's manufacturing base, they exploited the workforces of those companies for their own political agendas and by their militancy ensured the restructuring that was inevitably going to be required (to respond to the rise of the Japanese and the demand of a consumerist society for better quality and better value products) was more confrontational that it needed to be.  

I'm no expert on whether, as claimed by some, the political leaders of Germany and France really did a better job of setting a policy framework and political climate to facilitate this change better than MT and her government did, but I would make the following observations

Both Germany and France had persistently higher unemployment than the UK from the late 80's and throughout the 90's,

The economic performance of France, where the unions seem to have similar taste for confrontation to that which existed in Britain, has lagged significantly behind that of Germany where the unions are known for their more collaborative and pragmatic approach.

It's an inconvenient truth, but as we are discovering (and many of our European partners even more painfully than us) a nation can only prosper if it can pay it's way in the world.  The technological progress of mankind means that value derives less from the application of labour and the exploitation of natural resources (of which we have few and which certainly couldn't sustain a population of over 60m at anything like current living standards) and more and more from the application of knowledge.  Physiologically, we all have the same brains in our heads and there are 3bn more people on the planet than when I was born.  The intensification of global competition is really only just starting.  As a country we are going to have to work incredibly hard to maintain the general standard of living and public services we have been used to in the post war period.  We don't have a god-given right to this standard of living, we need to earn it and without what remains of MT's legacy, much of which has been squandered by subsequent administrations, Britain would be much less well placed to do so.

Olly

That’s because those UK manufactured cars are prestige, high performance sports, fat wallet Rangerovers, big bucks Bentley’s etc.

It’s only the cars purchased by the worlds very rich / super rich / disgustingly stinking rich because they’ve never had it so good since their austerity business model plan took hold a few years ago.

All right for some, eh?

Debs

He's Alive! 

Biggest volumes are actually Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Vauxhall, Mini. Not the premium brands you quote. Cars for the masses. And engines for mass production vehicles too, such as the huge diesel manufacturing capacity in Dagenham that powers Ford cars and vans.

Bruce

Whilst I share your concern regarding:

"concern over the use of public money on her funeral when there are so many more important priorities".

I feel I can only agree with you if you apply the same to football matches, Notting Hill carnival, all marches & demonstrations, etc.

I do admire your frugality towards the public purse.

I intend attending & would be content to pay for security etc. provided the same rule applies to all occasions; I believe the word is equality.

Sorry Debs perhaps I should refrain but how big is that chip on your shoulder?

Dear Debs,

All UK car manufacture today is foreign owned, even my favourite last bastion of British reserve succumbed , Bristol.

The manufacture of world class vehicles using world class engineers is very much alive and well today. Yes From BMW owned Rolls Royce and VW owned Bentley to Indian owned Jauguar and Land Rover  down to more humble products from American owned Ford and GM and Japanese owned Nissan and Honda.

I find your distress at UK manufacturing Luxury Vehicles for the wealthy of the world ODD as you enjoy the LUXURY  products of a fine French part owned HiFi manufacturer. Remember you could blow almost 100k on a full house NAIM active tri amped system, hardly the products for a checkout girl at Asda etc etc.

We should look at what happened in the late 70's with the unions decimating a variety of Industries in the UK. These Union Barons destroyed the lives of many union members and all from the luxury of their Protected Environments of the Union aristocracy.  As a late teen early 20's i watched as a variety of Industries started on the raggedy road to ruin. It was an awful time and we had all sorts of unpleasantness in Bristol as a direct result of Union activity.

Today as a variety of industries do well we can relax safely in the knowledge that the profits head overseas.

If Mrs Thatcher had not done what was necessary i wonder what would have happened to the world.

Look at the rest of the world commenting on what Mrs Thatcher achieved with  her Govt. Poland , Russia, East Germany etc etc.

As an aside  a lot of the luxury vehicles you appear to detetst are sold in former Socialist/Communist countries in very large numbers.

Today the UK has very high quality High Tech companies manufacturing world class products with highly skilled employees. This i feel is a major legacy left by the Thatcher years.

regards David former employee of a former Bristol Aeroplane Company subsidiary and a former Bristol HiFi manufacturer now in Hungary.

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t it MT that encouraged Nissan, Toyota, Honda to set up manufacturing in the UK with government aid etc. As the previous posts have suggested people were not prepared to pay for rubbish and why should they. This happened to Triumph motorcycles they were rubbish, unreliable (people call it character). The warning signs were there from Japan they made extremely reliable small capacity bikes and started to make larger bikes.

Honda launched the CB750 electric start indicators all the mod cons, Triumph still ignored the threat and stated at the Earls Court exhibition; people will always buy a Triumph. The same rational applied to British car manufacturers people will buy British cars however they were changing over to Japanese cars. Reliable cheaper etc so it was only a matter of time before our industry went to the wall.

But we now have a highly skilled car industry Nissan builds better cars now than the Japanese, if these manufacturers’ had not invested in the UK I’m sure we would not have a car manufacturing base in the UK. Yes we have been sold out to foreign companies but that’s a good thing is it not? Look at Jaguar,Range Rover etc beyond the reach of most people I suppose but it keeps skilled people in work.

Redmires; You mentioned the Phoenix consortium that screwed over the Rover company and its workers, plundering the company for vast profit (to themselves).

They bought Rover for a £1 from BMW if memory serves me right and screwed the company for millions this should never have happened. Rover at the time of the takeover had some very good developments they wanted to market but the Phoenix consortium stopped them from putting the cars into production. A leaked document stated Phoenix only bought Rover to make money. A very sad end to all the people that worked there and a sad end to a British name.

I say, steady on old chap !

Yep, especially the new models...They are flying  off the shelves!

I'm no lover of union power myself but to blame the ills of British industry entirely on the unions is wide of the mark. As one or two of the posts above suggest, the management of the heavy industries was dreadful. It's probably best to say that the management got the unions they deserved and vice versa.

Going back to MT, the deregulation of the financial industry and the privatisation of everything else has led us to where we are today. The pendulum has swung far too much the in the opposite direction. We can't blame the powerless unions for the events of the last five or ten years. The corporate and CEO greed fostered by MT and her government has brought the world to its knees. And that will be her legacy.

Red,

They were not so powerless in the 70's, were they? Did you try to get a job in those days if you were not a member or joined  a trade union?

Tony

From Thursday's Times, I got the feeling the driving force of her life, beyond the influence of her father, was the 'provincial dissenting tradition'.

RIP

Chris

Wugged Woy

, perhaps you may able to answer a question for me. I a while back watched a fascinating program on the DRAX Power Station. They were discussing how they were moving away from burning coal, which was mined very close by, and moving to Imported wood chip from Canada.

I really did not understand why a power station such as that which burned coal dust not lumps of coal so was efficient and low levels of emissions compared to older power stations was converted to burning imported wood chip.

You chop down a nice healthy tree in Canada chop it to bits put it into a big ship and move it to uk and then burn it in the power station. I really do not understand how this is preferable to burning the local coal. The program left me slightly angry at this apprent absurdity of chopping down CO2 absorbing trees to create power, as opposed to burning 10 million year old trees that are now coal.

Still not sure why we burn wood from Canada.

There have been other changes at DRAX to i believe.

David

Morgan has a partner in money technology and power trains.

BMW

David

Forgot the engine for the 3 wheeler is manufactured in the GOOOD OLE US of A

Hopefully the ash frame is from UK forest

David

Just hope for them their supplies are away from the dieback areas?

I detested her and her family but it's time to let her go now.

I must be getting old.

BackfromOz,

You may well ask....... Perhaps the local Lumberjack union wasn't very powerful (forgive the pun)  and posed no threat to the Tory Government....

Aghhh. Economics and ecology - mean nothing when it comes to politics.

'Include me in'. Perfectly put. Unfortunately, some of the 'singular, arrogant and little caring society' are not too far away............. Uwaga ! Uwaga ! (use Google translate ).

Isn't it REALLY sad that our only car manufacturer produces 700 'specific' cars per year ? How many cars overall does Germany or France produce ? So why not us ? And don't blame the Unions - they are dead and buried. So, why ??

Nonsense, all of it. What was so caring and lovable about labor union thuggery and national incompetence. That was Britain in the 70's make no mistake. A nation with a glorious history that was no longer of any consequence in the modern world. Margaret Thatcher and her political movement changed that dynamic.

Given the way your country was headed it is likely you British live a vastly better life today than you would have without Margaret Thatcher. Was it all good? No, not by a long shot. When you give people economic choice they can use that choice for good or not.

IMO many of us living in the Western world today think far too much about our rights and what we're owed and much less about our responsibilities to our community and to others. All this whining and bleating about this politician or that is nothing more than the petulance of overindulged post-war generations. In democratic countries, if you have a problem with your government look no further than the mirror you face in the morning.

Don't like Thatcher, spend some time in Venezuela, Cuba, Russia, China, and Iran. They'd love to have your problems.................let me see a new 252 or a used 552.

 By the way, I do not wish to imply this is a British issue alone. Far from it. In the developed and democratic world we are all dealing with these issues. Ask an American about gun control...................I am simply speechless.