Eliminating a hard-edge to HDX streaming from a NAS

Thanks. Certainly the addition or upgrade of a PS seems to make the biggest difference to the sound quality in my experience.

Bobsp, MM's XPS suggestion on the HDX will surely improve things.. I suspect however with a 282 and 250 you are showing up limitations in the HDX DAC, and it might be time to consider NDAC with XPS or in my opinion 555PS. Not cheap I know, but a phenomenal difference in inner detail and organic naturalness.. Then if you hear a hard edge.. It's in the master.. and its quite incredible the range of mastering. The NDAC/555PS does not hold back... So be prepaired for warts and all presentation, but magnificently rewarding.

Simon

Simon, many thanks. Your proposed solution is certainly not cheap.  Cost aside, I had been thinking of moving the HDX and NAS to the main living room and connecting it to the AV system and replacing it with an NDS and 555PS. However I decided to try and sort out the current system first before considering other requirements. 

I found the NDX - which I suspect is at the same level and has a similar Dac to the HDX fairly hard sounding too - at least initially with a New HiCapDR into a Supernait.

Here's the strange thing - I listen to the ND5XS bare, and I'm happy with the sound. The NDX however, I really want a XPS-DR on it. It adds a layer of warmth to the sound at least when used with separates - into a 202/200.

The ND5XS already has the warmth - even though the NDX is ultimately 'better' with better dynamics, more resolving etc.

If you really don't want to spend the money to upgrade the source, maybe a downgrade to the Nap 200 is in order.

This was the system recommended to me by Naim support: NDX/XPS-DR/282/HiCap/200.

Thanks MangoMonkey. The NDS5XS does lack the detail of the HDX but I agree that it has a swarmed sound. Also I have an active system with two very elderly 250s so I suspect that replacing them would be more expensive than a DAC and 555PS

Both of the 250s have recently been recapped As has the Ixos

Been here. In my opinion this is part of the HDX sound.  It took me a lot of time and cost that I had not planned for to get rid if it.  For me it was a hard digital type of sound.

Using the chokes as recommend by Simon is cheep and will help.

Next, nDac with good cable dressing.  I found the nDac very sensitive to supports. Also once you get the nDac you can the use the Hdx without the link plug - better sound but no touch panel.

next, power line on the nDac.  For getting rid the digital sound I found this more important than the power supply for the nDac.

next power supply for the nDac. 

I hope this helps you. Sorry for the extra costs.

Paul

Paul, thanks for your very informative response as it is great to know that it is not all in my mind. I have to say that I have had some excellent support from the distributor in resolving other issues and improving the sound by an order of magnitude through little tweaks, but the basic problem was still there at the end. I had expected to buy powerlines and also another fraim shelf. Another major issue that was uncovered recently, was the damper on one of the Allaes was hanging off the end of the pin!

I remember the NDX also have a hard sound - before I put a XPS on it. If you're planning on doing nDac/XPS-2 anyway, it might make sense to try a XPS-2 on the HDX - maybe it'll fix it.

If you're too wed to the HDX, you could also do a ND5XS/nDac/XPS-2.... or even a UnitiQute/nDac/XPS-2....

ManoMonkey, thanks for that sugestion. The issue is that the local dealers do not tend to carry stocks of higher end units such as XPS etc and I do not want to have to buy one only to find out that it is does not fix the issue and that the likes of the 555PS is needed. I will contact the distributor to see what can be arranged and also for his recommendation as he has heard the system, albeit prior to the SCAP DR upgrade. The upgrade delivered a dramatic improvement to the sound in many ways. Also the dealer I have been using for many years is since demised and whilst they took trade-ins and I have yet to find a local one that I want to deal with that take trade-ins.  With one exception they are relatively new to Naim dealerships.

I have a HDX 2TB HDD version which was always matched to a 555PS first now via n-DAC.

I admit to have not heard a HDX SSD version, but for me my HDX was soft and not very dynamic untill the n-DAC was added. So you saying it is now hard edged seems to me there is something wrong in the set up or equipment itself. My HDX / PS was many things before the n-DAC was added - hard edged was not one of them (for me) . 

Have you tried ground or floating switch on the HDX, what digital connectors do you have now or have tried etc ? Is yours the most current version now with software, sound card up to date etc. ?

Edit: just reread your post. Is your S/Cap DR upgrade very recent ? Mine had the hard edge for 3-4 weeks after it was upgraded. Perhaps this is what you are hearing ?

Good luck, Peter

Peter, thanks for your advice and suggestions. The SCAP upgrade was just last week (and I can hear it improve as time goes by), but the issue has been around for a very long time. As it turns out there was a dodgy capacitor in the SCAP capacitors that was replaced when the upgrade was done. Over that period there have been many changes, mostly minor tweaks that in total made a significant difference.

The HDX-SSD is a recent replacement for an earlier one purchased over three years ago, so it is a current model and the software is uptodate. All of the Naim gear is connected to a separate circuit so it is isolated to domestic devices. In terms of earthing I am not sure whether exactly how it is earthed, other than in the same way as the rest of gear. The digital out to the 282 is by a hi-line and it is hanging free as recommended. All other cabling is standard. The Ixos has an internally attached power cable, as the Ixos is pretty ancient (1984!). The distributor suspected the old style connector (clip) on one of the 250s but that has been replaced. I will wait to see how the SCAP settles down.

Have you tried streaming some downloaded files from another server like your PC?  This will at least eliminate the ripping element as a possible problem if the hard edge is still present. 

G

Yes I have. I have got quite a few HiDef files and they have the same characteristic but no so pronounced. The FM Tuner, that I have just reconnected, sounds very much warmer than the HDX.

Bob,

Can you get to yours dealer conveniently?

Does this signature repeat in their listening room for you using predominantly the same setup?

The reason I ask is that:

1. I find CD frequently has this signature;

2. I could never get on with the Allae as I found it exacerbated this quality on vocals to my ears.

One of my main reasons for ripping my LP collection is that it gets rid of this vocal 'edge', which is VASTLY reduced by streaming, but not completely tamed on all recordings.

M

Bob,

I went searching and found this comment I wrote about the Allae's:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...420#1566878606933420

.....However, I do find that as speakers they have, to my ears, a certain edge & lack of warmth; even with vocals that can occasionally sound a bit strained and thin.

M

Have you tried to put some of the tracks or albums on a usb stick. This should reveal if the problem is in the network or the rest of the gear?

Graham and M, thanks for your sugestions:-

1. The network has been investigated to death as there was another problem with my prior HDX, some while ago. Strangely enough the problem did not occur if you had a USB stick in the HDX!

2.  Yes I can get to a dealer, but they do not have anything like my set up as they are new and only have lower spec equipment. However the distributor is arranging a loan 555PS so no need for a visit to the dealers other than maybe to pick up the 555. You are spot on as regards an edge to vocals and whllst it is more noticeable with soprano voices it is also noticeable with male voices as well and it tends to go right through you. Let's see what difference the 555PS makes. I also agree that some CDs sound quite thin, although the SCAP DR upgrade has made a difference but it has not gone away entirely. Also if playing an orchestral piece it could sound constrained and once more the SCAP DR upgrade has made quite a big difference to that and you can hear individual instruments more clearly.  

How did you rip your LPs and how successful has that been? I did hear a Rega TT (not sure what model) with a lower spec Naim system, but very highen speakers, at the dealer and it sounded much better than the ND5SX, so I am now keen to get a TT and resurect my ancient LPs. 

Given my experience and your comments  

Hi Bob,

The 555PS is an expensive change. Will they lend you a DAC?

WRT the vinyl rips:

I own an LP12 / ARO / Dynavector / Armageddon. I attach a digital recorder to my pre-amp, play the album and record it.

As a friend of mine said, when he heard the results, '....that sounds like an LP12'. For better or worse.

Personally I find the presentation of the human voice critical to my enjoyment of any music where it appears, regardless of genre. I never got along with CD, but I have found streaming to be far better.

Generally I find digital bass to be more linear and subterranean, I have found analogue voices to lack digital edge. Sometimes you have a great synergy in a digital recording that has avoided the edge issue. I think that the quality of digital recording has improved markedly, unfortunately this has also seen the rise of the 0db monster.

Hope you get to a system that allows you to simply relax and listen to the music,

M

If you are in the UK then Dealers should usually be able to get mid to high end products from us to do demos with even if they don't carry then as a stock item so it shouldn't be a problem for them to help you out...

Cheers

Phil

Hi M, I think that it is more that he has the 555PS to hand, so I will see how it goes. 

With the price of a Dac or xps or 555, Why not try to test better speakers. I know source first, but my own experience is that good speakers is not a bad idea either. The old rule of the weakest link in a system limits performance also apply  to Naim systems.

Claus

Hi Claus, I have listened to a number of speakers and asked the dealer (not a Naim dealer) for a home trial and could not get one. Also as I have an active system and not all speakers support that, including the S-400, at least not yet. Also after the DR upgrade to the SCAP, the Allaes sounded hugely better. I see the HDX as the issue to be resolved otherwise the danger is that you are just disguising it. I find the UnitiQute and Sonus Faber tout bookshelf speakers easier to listen to, albeit not the same detail, etc, as the HDX.