Thoughts on UPnP after a year with the Uniti
Posted by: Martin Sixsmith on 01 February 2011
- Windows. Asset UPnP works very well with great functionality, including album artwork, Apple Lossless (converted to WAV on the fly ?). Tried others such as Twonky, Allegro but no Lossless support. Asset also functions smoothly via iPhone Apps such as Plug Player or PS Audio Tag n’ Play
- Apple Mac. Only Eye Connect works well for me. Great at streaming direct to the Uniti where Album / track details are shown on the Uniti display. Also streams Apple Lossless. However, if I want to use PlugPlayer or PS Audio Tag n’ Play then I cannot stream Apple Lossless or WAV– the Uniti tells me the "file format is unsupported". No album artwork either.
- Uniti – I found it be very router sensitive. The higher spec Thomson router that I upgraded to with O2 had continual dropouts (also with iRadio but only on BBC stations !) and whenever I switched from UPnP to another input and then back to UPnP, it was unable to find the server. Only solution was to reboot. Switching to the bog standard POS router that came with my original O2 package solved all the problems. Strange !
- Conclusion. Windows users are well served (!) with Asset UpNp. Apple users are also OK with Eye Connect although it is a pity there is no album artwork support and I still don’t understand why it won’t play my Apple Lossless / WAV files via Plug Player.
Overall, I believe that UPnP still has a “work in progress” label attached to it.
For sheer user convenience and hassle free operation my current preference is the Apple Remote /iTunes / Airport Express combo. Works every time with Mac or PC, marvellous convenience & functionality and, to my ears at least, no discernible difference in sound quality.
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by Michael Chare
It is possible to have a bad wired network connection which because it works some of the time can give you the UPnP problems that you report.
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by Alamanka
Martin, what firmware version do you use on the Uniti?
On my side, I am still using the "old" firmware installed in December 2009.
The uniti is wirelessly connected. The NAS is wired to the router and has Twonky natively installed.
I am storing the files in Flac format.
Regarding the technical aspect, since I did not upgrade yet, I still have the bugs from earlier firmware.
Sound quality
In terms of sound quality, UPnP is very good.
Is UPnP sound quality equally or less good than CD replay? To my ears it is very close. Are there some slightly lighter bass on UPnP? Possibly, but I am not completely sure. I would be interested if someone would do quantitative measurements to bring additional facts.
Streaming
The streaming works well, except for the gaps between tracks, but this is supposed to be addressed in the new firmware.
UPnP discovery
What is not working too well for me is the UPnP "discovery" part.
Specifically, the unit is often invisible to the other devices that are also wirelessly connected to the router. As a consequence, I usually cannot control the unit from a Windows PC, even with Asset or Foobar UPnP, so I use the front panel and the IR remote of the Uniti instead.
Most often than not, when switching to UPnP from CD, the unit is not finding the server. In this case, the solution is either to reboot, or use the remote to do the following:
Setup, Network settings, then press OK on various network settings, then Exit. This makes the NaimUniti to restart the network connections and the UPnP communications without having to switch off the unit (I can provide the exact steps upon request)
I am planning to upgrade the firmware in the coming weeks. I also have the project to wire the Uniti to the router. Maybe these two changes will solve the problems.
Control points
The most reliable control point for me has been the front panel and IR remote of NaimUniti itself.
Windows: Foobar 2000 has a lot more features than Asset, but Asset has some virtue of simplicity
Android: Andromote is the only one I have found. It gets the work done.
All those three products are good in the rare occasion when the NaimUniti becomes visible on the network and available for control.
Still wondering what control point would work best with young children.
On my side, I am still using the "old" firmware installed in December 2009.
The uniti is wirelessly connected. The NAS is wired to the router and has Twonky natively installed.
I am storing the files in Flac format.
Regarding the technical aspect, since I did not upgrade yet, I still have the bugs from earlier firmware.
Sound quality
In terms of sound quality, UPnP is very good.
Is UPnP sound quality equally or less good than CD replay? To my ears it is very close. Are there some slightly lighter bass on UPnP? Possibly, but I am not completely sure. I would be interested if someone would do quantitative measurements to bring additional facts.
Streaming
The streaming works well, except for the gaps between tracks, but this is supposed to be addressed in the new firmware.
UPnP discovery
What is not working too well for me is the UPnP "discovery" part.
Specifically, the unit is often invisible to the other devices that are also wirelessly connected to the router. As a consequence, I usually cannot control the unit from a Windows PC, even with Asset or Foobar UPnP, so I use the front panel and the IR remote of the Uniti instead.
Most often than not, when switching to UPnP from CD, the unit is not finding the server. In this case, the solution is either to reboot, or use the remote to do the following:
Setup, Network settings, then press OK on various network settings, then Exit. This makes the NaimUniti to restart the network connections and the UPnP communications without having to switch off the unit (I can provide the exact steps upon request)
I am planning to upgrade the firmware in the coming weeks. I also have the project to wire the Uniti to the router. Maybe these two changes will solve the problems.
Control points
The most reliable control point for me has been the front panel and IR remote of NaimUniti itself.
Windows: Foobar 2000 has a lot more features than Asset, but Asset has some virtue of simplicity
Android: Andromote is the only one I have found. It gets the work done.
All those three products are good in the rare occasion when the NaimUniti becomes visible on the network and available for control.
Still wondering what control point would work best with young children.
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by badlyread
Try Majestic for the Mac rather than EyeConnect. It is free and much better in my opinion (still under development though).
Neil
Neil
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by Martin Sixsmith
Alamanka
My Uniti firmware is 2.0.00; BC SW:10189. I have not yet upgraded to the latest firmware. I have a wired ethernet connection to the router.
In terms of sound quality, moving to the Uniti a year ago provided a quantum leap in sound quality compared to my previous (Teac) system. Differences between UPnP / CD / AiirPlay are, to my ears, small and I therefore prefer to enjoy the music rather than spending time listening out for (small) differences between different inputs. Others, with sharper ears than mine, may disagree but that's my experience.
In terms of UPnP discovery, the problems you experience sound similar to the those I had before switching routers. Did you try this ?
My Uniti firmware is 2.0.00; BC SW:10189. I have not yet upgraded to the latest firmware. I have a wired ethernet connection to the router.
In terms of sound quality, moving to the Uniti a year ago provided a quantum leap in sound quality compared to my previous (Teac) system. Differences between UPnP / CD / AiirPlay are, to my ears, small and I therefore prefer to enjoy the music rather than spending time listening out for (small) differences between different inputs. Others, with sharper ears than mine, may disagree but that's my experience.
In terms of UPnP discovery, the problems you experience sound similar to the those I had before switching routers. Did you try this ?
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by Tog
Had a few brief similar issues with my dealer's loan Uniti whilst mine was on order. I found that by changing the radio frequency used by my two Airport Extreme base stations the issues with discovery and dropouts vanished. It has been rock solid ever since.
Tog
Tog
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by DavidDever
"I am planning to upgrade the firmware in the coming weeks. I also have the project to wire the Uniti to the router. Maybe these two changes will solve the problems."
Yes and yes–your retailer should be arranging this (firmware-updated unit) for you, if I recall correctly.
Yes and yes–your retailer should be arranging this (firmware-updated unit) for you, if I recall correctly.
Posted on: 01 February 2011 by lhau
To share a bit of my experience with Uniti:
1) I use UPNP exclusively. Using your computer/airport express is the equivalent to connecting a very noisy transport to your DAC, with all the timing issue via the Digital link in real time. Even though the read from CD is bit perfect, the transmittion is not. UPNP is different. It is not real time as your Uniti would read the file in its own memory buffer and everything is done inside the Uniti, which is designed by a Hifi company, in Hifi circuit with Hifi design in mind.
2) By using UPNP as such, the sound quality should be very close to playing CD. The read is bit perfect but quality maybe only affected by having a small computer board inside the chasis. The DAC is essentially identical (but does take different path inside as I heard the Uniti actually has seperate DAC boards for its CD and its Digital input/Upnp)
3) For similar argument and to minimize external impact, I don't tend to use transcoder.
4) I use a NAS which has built in UPNP support (Synology). The setting is essentially dragging the file into the NAS Music Directory with a picture named (Cover.jpg) in the same folder. Easy enough for me. Another thing is, it is more dedicated to the work of delivering files, so should be better
5) I use a gigabit router which really helps even though I use computer and internet on the same network.
This is my experience and thought, your experience may vary.
What I find difficult is, I don't have a good on the fly play list creation methods. But oh well. I have every CDs on my finger tips. So it is not an disadvantage when compared with playing on CD, just hope this can be improved.
On a note for the playback, I use the latest version of firmware, the file reading is ok. I think why you notice a gap, is when you set it on Random.
Unlike playing CDs which has say 20 tracks TOC which the CD player reads in memory when you insert it. The Uniti is faced with directory of thousands of files and can't possibly pre-read all. When you random your playing, it will need to fetch a unpredicted file after finishing with the current one, introducing "lag" to get that information on the network. I find there is no such gap when playing more sequentially.
I believe this can be improved by further firmware upgrade, if they really want to fix this.
1) I use UPNP exclusively. Using your computer/airport express is the equivalent to connecting a very noisy transport to your DAC, with all the timing issue via the Digital link in real time. Even though the read from CD is bit perfect, the transmittion is not. UPNP is different. It is not real time as your Uniti would read the file in its own memory buffer and everything is done inside the Uniti, which is designed by a Hifi company, in Hifi circuit with Hifi design in mind.
2) By using UPNP as such, the sound quality should be very close to playing CD. The read is bit perfect but quality maybe only affected by having a small computer board inside the chasis. The DAC is essentially identical (but does take different path inside as I heard the Uniti actually has seperate DAC boards for its CD and its Digital input/Upnp)
3) For similar argument and to minimize external impact, I don't tend to use transcoder.
4) I use a NAS which has built in UPNP support (Synology). The setting is essentially dragging the file into the NAS Music Directory with a picture named (Cover.jpg) in the same folder. Easy enough for me. Another thing is, it is more dedicated to the work of delivering files, so should be better
5) I use a gigabit router which really helps even though I use computer and internet on the same network.
This is my experience and thought, your experience may vary.
What I find difficult is, I don't have a good on the fly play list creation methods. But oh well. I have every CDs on my finger tips. So it is not an disadvantage when compared with playing on CD, just hope this can be improved.
On a note for the playback, I use the latest version of firmware, the file reading is ok. I think why you notice a gap, is when you set it on Random.
Unlike playing CDs which has say 20 tracks TOC which the CD player reads in memory when you insert it. The Uniti is faced with directory of thousands of files and can't possibly pre-read all. When you random your playing, it will need to fetch a unpredicted file after finishing with the current one, introducing "lag" to get that information on the network. I find there is no such gap when playing more sequentially.
I believe this can be improved by further firmware upgrade, if they really want to fix this.
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by balma01
Ilhau, please, can you explain in detail the differencer about itunes that sends to airport express and upnp server that sends to upnp render?
I was thinking that the process is similar: itunes read the bits, and send them to the airport express that can convert them to analog or (better) can send them to another DAC through a digital link.
Is not similar to upnp?
I was thinking that the process is similar: itunes read the bits, and send them to the airport express that can convert them to analog or (better) can send them to another DAC through a digital link.
Is not similar to upnp?
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by RedOne
My (initial) journey into distributed music has involved Asset and iTunes (via Airport Express). I'm not sure I can tell the difference, and it keeps coming back to iTunes being just so simply for the family to use. What I'd really like is either an NDX or nDac that includes an Airplay client right in the box. (This would be an instant purchase for me).
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by lhau
UPNP is foundamentally different from using Airport express/MacBook/PC to connect to a NaimUniti via a SPDIF.
The SPDIF is a BITSTREAM one way interface. It means that, from inside the Airport express/PC, the data must be converted to a Bit Stream and send to the SPDIF at exactly 44.1khz (when playing CD) or whatever the frequency it is (e.g. 96khz). The challenge for this is that:
1) It is like TV board-casting, if your receptor miss the signal at that second, the signal is missed and there is noway to recapture the missing part (e.g. think that if your TV happen to miss signal for one second, your TV will only be able to play the next second and never getting back the prior second to you)
2) The sender (Computer/Airport express) has a different clock from your receiver (NaimUniti or nDac). It is like asking one person wearing a Rolex while the other one using an Atomic clock to time sync actions. The watch may be accurate in its own right but they are 2 different clock and may just not be in sync.
3) Some Dac may try to use a buffer to attempt to eliminate most of this. But in the end, since it is BITSTREAM one way interface essentially, if a bit is missed, the buffer cannot ask the sender to resend to recover. Also, If the sender is too slow (e.g. sending 44khz instead of 44.1), the buffer is not going to get the right timing (because the data has not yet arrived). On the other hand, if the sender is always too fast (e.g. sending 45khz instead of 44.1khz), the buffer will eventually be overflown (it has to collect 0.9khz of data every second and eventually this will run out). Of course this is only the extreme as most likely it will send faster at times and slower at times, eventually the buffer can smooth out this, but still, it shows you it is not "time - bit" perfect inherently.
4) Handling BIT STREAM that is time sensitive therefore, ought to be done in Audio grade PSU, Circuit boards and components. (That is why those damn CD transport and some of them use common clocks are so expensive as they try to handle the BIT STREAM for audio and overcome this). Your PC/Airport are definitely NOT audio grade and audio designed. On the contrary, they are generally quite electronically noisy and is ill suited for this purpose.
5) One less related point is about the TOSLINK, I think the general implementation of that optical cable is 20bit/48khz max, making it impossible to transmit higher than that when playing HiRes file. (You should check if both your PC and your DAC can both handle higher resolution than that, as it is non-standard and I doubt they can......)
UPNP is entirely different thing. UPNP is a network protocol more akin to file sharing. Your Naimuniti (Or other streamer) has essentially a onboard mini computer specialize in requesting files from the network server, as a result of this:
1) It is a two way communication. If something is missing, your streamer can and do request the sender to resend. Much like you will never open a Word file stored on a network server with different content from what was saved (well, unless that disk is crashed or something which is much less likely if you keep a generally healthy server), your Uniti will never receive a FLAC or WAV file with different content.
2) This communication is less time sensitive. The server read from HD and the network interface is faster than the actual speed required. For example, a 100MBit can actually transmit 16bit at about 6Mhz which is like 10 times more than 44.1khz? For a 1000MBit ethernet, it is actually even more. The NaimUniti/other streamer will buffer the audio file. As long as the network and the server is not too busy and able to send the NaimUniti data to always keep the buffer full, the UPNP will not introduce any timing problem that affect the quality of the sound output. In fact, if your server is too busy feeding NaimUniti data fast enough, the NaimUniti will simply be unable to play, rather than introducing error in sound. Whether this is a bigger problem than not able to produce sound accurately due to jitter is a matter of your own personal opinion, but you will definitely KNOW it.
3) Keeping the NaimUniti under uPnp is definitely easier. You just get a fast router, using reasonable standard network cables instead of wireless (which is less stable, and if you live in a City where you can search and find 20 of other people's wireless servers from your WIFI, then you better use a cable), and then use a upnp server that is mostly dedicated in serving file, it is done. This is much cheaper than buying a "bit perfect" audio grade transport?
4) The file (e.g. FLAC) is actually performed inside the NaimUniti and converted to a bitstream to be feed into its DAC chip. As NaimUniti is definitely a audio grade component, it will be performed from a bit perfect file in its buffer inside its audio grade designed circuits. This will almost certainly produce a much better sound. Or I may put it in the other way around: this is definitely the best case your PC/Airport is trying to match with all those variable above. It can *almost certainly* not sound any worst than the best case of the SPDIF.
As a side note, I *believe* the inherent problem with the SPDIF is the reason why Naim itself never had a transport/DAC separate box system like other brands. Doing that is just asking for trouble.
I hope this makes sense to you.
The SPDIF is a BITSTREAM one way interface. It means that, from inside the Airport express/PC, the data must be converted to a Bit Stream and send to the SPDIF at exactly 44.1khz (when playing CD) or whatever the frequency it is (e.g. 96khz). The challenge for this is that:
1) It is like TV board-casting, if your receptor miss the signal at that second, the signal is missed and there is noway to recapture the missing part (e.g. think that if your TV happen to miss signal for one second, your TV will only be able to play the next second and never getting back the prior second to you)
2) The sender (Computer/Airport express) has a different clock from your receiver (NaimUniti or nDac). It is like asking one person wearing a Rolex while the other one using an Atomic clock to time sync actions. The watch may be accurate in its own right but they are 2 different clock and may just not be in sync.
3) Some Dac may try to use a buffer to attempt to eliminate most of this. But in the end, since it is BITSTREAM one way interface essentially, if a bit is missed, the buffer cannot ask the sender to resend to recover. Also, If the sender is too slow (e.g. sending 44khz instead of 44.1), the buffer is not going to get the right timing (because the data has not yet arrived). On the other hand, if the sender is always too fast (e.g. sending 45khz instead of 44.1khz), the buffer will eventually be overflown (it has to collect 0.9khz of data every second and eventually this will run out). Of course this is only the extreme as most likely it will send faster at times and slower at times, eventually the buffer can smooth out this, but still, it shows you it is not "time - bit" perfect inherently.
4) Handling BIT STREAM that is time sensitive therefore, ought to be done in Audio grade PSU, Circuit boards and components. (That is why those damn CD transport and some of them use common clocks are so expensive as they try to handle the BIT STREAM for audio and overcome this). Your PC/Airport are definitely NOT audio grade and audio designed. On the contrary, they are generally quite electronically noisy and is ill suited for this purpose.
5) One less related point is about the TOSLINK, I think the general implementation of that optical cable is 20bit/48khz max, making it impossible to transmit higher than that when playing HiRes file. (You should check if both your PC and your DAC can both handle higher resolution than that, as it is non-standard and I doubt they can......)
UPNP is entirely different thing. UPNP is a network protocol more akin to file sharing. Your Naimuniti (Or other streamer) has essentially a onboard mini computer specialize in requesting files from the network server, as a result of this:
1) It is a two way communication. If something is missing, your streamer can and do request the sender to resend. Much like you will never open a Word file stored on a network server with different content from what was saved (well, unless that disk is crashed or something which is much less likely if you keep a generally healthy server), your Uniti will never receive a FLAC or WAV file with different content.
2) This communication is less time sensitive. The server read from HD and the network interface is faster than the actual speed required. For example, a 100MBit can actually transmit 16bit at about 6Mhz which is like 10 times more than 44.1khz? For a 1000MBit ethernet, it is actually even more. The NaimUniti/other streamer will buffer the audio file. As long as the network and the server is not too busy and able to send the NaimUniti data to always keep the buffer full, the UPNP will not introduce any timing problem that affect the quality of the sound output. In fact, if your server is too busy feeding NaimUniti data fast enough, the NaimUniti will simply be unable to play, rather than introducing error in sound. Whether this is a bigger problem than not able to produce sound accurately due to jitter is a matter of your own personal opinion, but you will definitely KNOW it.
3) Keeping the NaimUniti under uPnp is definitely easier. You just get a fast router, using reasonable standard network cables instead of wireless (which is less stable, and if you live in a City where you can search and find 20 of other people's wireless servers from your WIFI, then you better use a cable), and then use a upnp server that is mostly dedicated in serving file, it is done. This is much cheaper than buying a "bit perfect" audio grade transport?
4) The file (e.g. FLAC) is actually performed inside the NaimUniti and converted to a bitstream to be feed into its DAC chip. As NaimUniti is definitely a audio grade component, it will be performed from a bit perfect file in its buffer inside its audio grade designed circuits. This will almost certainly produce a much better sound. Or I may put it in the other way around: this is definitely the best case your PC/Airport is trying to match with all those variable above. It can *almost certainly* not sound any worst than the best case of the SPDIF.
As a side note, I *believe* the inherent problem with the SPDIF is the reason why Naim itself never had a transport/DAC separate box system like other brands. Doing that is just asking for trouble.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by lhau
One more note on this. If you use a USB drive to connect to your Uniti/DAC directly, you will eliminate even the network and server variable.
As you don't read a non-bit perfect word file form your USB drive, and that you can copy a 5 minute song to/from a USB drive for much faster than 5 minutes (e.g. 10 seconds?), you can be certain what your Uniti/DAC is getting will be bit perfect and maintain a full buffer.
Of course, if your network server/router is reasonable, there is no reason to expect a different sound from your Uniti. (nDAC cannot do uPNP so cannot be compared)
The only difference is what difference in noise your connected USB drive introduces vs that of a network cable. There is no reason to believe one is significantly greater than the others? But of course, you can always experiment to see if there is indeed any difference......
As you don't read a non-bit perfect word file form your USB drive, and that you can copy a 5 minute song to/from a USB drive for much faster than 5 minutes (e.g. 10 seconds?), you can be certain what your Uniti/DAC is getting will be bit perfect and maintain a full buffer.
Of course, if your network server/router is reasonable, there is no reason to expect a different sound from your Uniti. (nDAC cannot do uPNP so cannot be compared)
The only difference is what difference in noise your connected USB drive introduces vs that of a network cable. There is no reason to believe one is significantly greater than the others? But of course, you can always experiment to see if there is indeed any difference......
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by Tog
One reason I have stuck with UPnP is the quality of the sound produced by flac served up to Uniti - a faff sometimes but worth the effort.
Tog
Tog
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by lhau
There is also other pitfalls than this if you send sound from a PC via SPDIF.
1) Since Windows/Mac is a multitasking system, many programs (e.g. your web browser playing YouTube, iTunes playing music, MSN giving your "uh oh" etc) are actually sharing the same SPDIF link with a fixed bit/frequency (i.e. the one you set in control panel/system preference)
2) What happens is those programs actually sends the operating system (be it Windows 7/Mac) a request that I need to play this "sound". The operating system then mixes the sound and perform some processing (see below) before sending the sound out via the interface. When your computer is busy, this may introduce some jitter.
3) Even if you disregard this possible jitter, those "processing" are of interest to you. Firstly, if you have set the bit/frequency to 24bit/48khz, while the program (ie iTunes playing CD rip files?) asks the Windoz/MacOS to play its 16bit/44.1khz stuff, and at the same time YouTube is playing 8bit/22khz sound, what happens is the Windoz/Mac sound handler will change them to 24bit/48hz before sending via the SPDIF. Yes, your sound gets re-sampled/up-sampled/down-sampled without you doing anything. Notwithstanding what you think about resample (I don't like that), even if you do think up-sample is nice, you will almost be certain that Microsoft/Mac will not give you a audio grade resampling? The OS is interested in handling your request as fast as possible and keeping the Computer running as fast as possible, most likely they won't use any exotic supreme sounding algorithms!
4) Furthermore, you notice the nice volume control? It is actually a digital volume control. Yes, they not only up/down/resample your sound, they will also alter the sound to adjust the volume level. Whether you believe in digital volume control or not (well I generally don't like any change in the source), Microsoft is definitely NOT Wadia, NOT Naim and NOT Linn. You can be sure the algorithm will be rougher than audio companies.
5) You can possibly side-step this by setting the volume to 100% and always manually adjust the bit-rate to match the file you are playing. This is indeed tedious.
6) On PC, I think you can use something that is called (WSAPI <-- not sure if I remember the name correctly). What it does is that the program that support it will take over the Windows and talk directly to the SPDIF hardware. With the right program (I think foobar2000 is one?), it will change the bit-rate automatically to match the file and also send bitstream directly. The catch is that all your other programs will become silent, you need compatible hardware, only limited software support this (I think iTunes does not? please correct me if I am wrong) and you need to setup the "drivers" correctly. I am not sure if something similar exists in Mac since I use upnp exclusively
7)Even though you sidestep as above, you go back to the inherent limitation of sending Bitstream from a Noisy computer box again.
What I am saying here is that, with a SPDIF solution, there are a lot of things that may alter your Digital Source that you may never aware in the first place. Getting through all those and setting up a bitstream source itself is already lots of trouble and almost certainly not going to sound as nice as a direct solution from Naim or even the Linn.
Hey, just use the upnp if possible, NaimUniti will side step and handle all these for you and almost certainly will sound nicer than something designed by Microsoft or even Apple?
1) Since Windows/Mac is a multitasking system, many programs (e.g. your web browser playing YouTube, iTunes playing music, MSN giving your "uh oh" etc) are actually sharing the same SPDIF link with a fixed bit/frequency (i.e. the one you set in control panel/system preference)
2) What happens is those programs actually sends the operating system (be it Windows 7/Mac) a request that I need to play this "sound". The operating system then mixes the sound and perform some processing (see below) before sending the sound out via the interface. When your computer is busy, this may introduce some jitter.
3) Even if you disregard this possible jitter, those "processing" are of interest to you. Firstly, if you have set the bit/frequency to 24bit/48khz, while the program (ie iTunes playing CD rip files?) asks the Windoz/MacOS to play its 16bit/44.1khz stuff, and at the same time YouTube is playing 8bit/22khz sound, what happens is the Windoz/Mac sound handler will change them to 24bit/48hz before sending via the SPDIF. Yes, your sound gets re-sampled/up-sampled/down-sampled without you doing anything. Notwithstanding what you think about resample (I don't like that), even if you do think up-sample is nice, you will almost be certain that Microsoft/Mac will not give you a audio grade resampling? The OS is interested in handling your request as fast as possible and keeping the Computer running as fast as possible, most likely they won't use any exotic supreme sounding algorithms!
4) Furthermore, you notice the nice volume control? It is actually a digital volume control. Yes, they not only up/down/resample your sound, they will also alter the sound to adjust the volume level. Whether you believe in digital volume control or not (well I generally don't like any change in the source), Microsoft is definitely NOT Wadia, NOT Naim and NOT Linn. You can be sure the algorithm will be rougher than audio companies.
5) You can possibly side-step this by setting the volume to 100% and always manually adjust the bit-rate to match the file you are playing. This is indeed tedious.
6) On PC, I think you can use something that is called (WSAPI <-- not sure if I remember the name correctly). What it does is that the program that support it will take over the Windows and talk directly to the SPDIF hardware. With the right program (I think foobar2000 is one?), it will change the bit-rate automatically to match the file and also send bitstream directly. The catch is that all your other programs will become silent, you need compatible hardware, only limited software support this (I think iTunes does not? please correct me if I am wrong) and you need to setup the "drivers" correctly. I am not sure if something similar exists in Mac since I use upnp exclusively
7)Even though you sidestep as above, you go back to the inherent limitation of sending Bitstream from a Noisy computer box again.
What I am saying here is that, with a SPDIF solution, there are a lot of things that may alter your Digital Source that you may never aware in the first place. Getting through all those and setting up a bitstream source itself is already lots of trouble and almost certainly not going to sound as nice as a direct solution from Naim or even the Linn.
Hey, just use the upnp if possible, NaimUniti will side step and handle all these for you and almost certainly will sound nicer than something designed by Microsoft or even Apple?
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by manicm
lhau - so the Uniti will support a self-powered USB drive?
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by lhau
I think it support a USB Stick. I am not sure about drive.
Maybe I will try later and let you know.
Maybe I will try later and let you know.
Posted on: 02 February 2011 by Oscar_F
manicm - I am using a self powered USB drive and it works fine with my Uniti
Posted on: 04 February 2011 by Paul53
It was interesting to read Martin's comments on music streaming and Asset uPnP. I have recently bought a Uniti and I'm working to get reliable streaming of songs from my home network to the Naim.
I'm using Win7 coupled to the Naim via a wired and wireless home network and a Seagate GoFlex NAS.
I suppose I have to say that, although I'm far from a computer newbie, I found getting music streaming to work much harder than I expected.
So far I have managed to get FLACs to stream OK from the NAS to the Naim using a Homeplug connection and Asset uPnP running on my Win7 PC. I didn't realise Asset could transcode ALACs on the fly. Does it really?
I've tried Twonky and found that basically OK but rather un-friendly to use. In my view Asset is very much work in progress (and I have paid for a proper version). Album artwork as seen on Asset Control seems very hit and miss as does its handling of compilation albums. They end up all over the place.
Apart from this mild rant, how do people handle playlists on Asset? I have got them working thanks to the www, some simple programming and a piece of free downloaded software, but there must be a more elegant solution.
It's a good job I enjoy this sort of challenge........................................
Paul
I'm using Win7 coupled to the Naim via a wired and wireless home network and a Seagate GoFlex NAS.
I suppose I have to say that, although I'm far from a computer newbie, I found getting music streaming to work much harder than I expected.
So far I have managed to get FLACs to stream OK from the NAS to the Naim using a Homeplug connection and Asset uPnP running on my Win7 PC. I didn't realise Asset could transcode ALACs on the fly. Does it really?
I've tried Twonky and found that basically OK but rather un-friendly to use. In my view Asset is very much work in progress (and I have paid for a proper version). Album artwork as seen on Asset Control seems very hit and miss as does its handling of compilation albums. They end up all over the place.
Apart from this mild rant, how do people handle playlists on Asset? I have got them working thanks to the www, some simple programming and a piece of free downloaded software, but there must be a more elegant solution.
It's a good job I enjoy this sort of challenge........................................
Paul
Posted on: 04 February 2011 by Tog
I quite liked Asset despite its Windoze Home Server (sounds like a teasmaid) underpinnings - control of Cover Art on MiniDLNA (Fedora Linux via Vortexbox NAS) is pretty good - I use Bliss to fine tune and it can all be done via a browser on my Ipad. The Ipad bit has become pretty essential as once you get used to it - you don't want to use anything else.
Tog
Posted on: 04 February 2011 by Martin Sixsmith
Paul. Regarding your comments on Asset my experience has been :
Album Artwork - if I have the album artwork in iTunes then Asset displays it in either Plug Player or Tag n' Play via iPhone
Compilation albums - seem ok but will double check !!
Playlists - until I found the free programme "iTunes Export" I also could not replicate my iTunes playlists in Asset. Maybe others know an easier way but I couldn't find it.
Finally as you can no doubt tell, I am no "techie" but I believe Asset does convert ALAC files on the fly to WAV. Certainly the "Stream Info" display on the Uniti tells me my ALAC files are 44.1kHz WAV.
Album Artwork - if I have the album artwork in iTunes then Asset displays it in either Plug Player or Tag n' Play via iPhone
Compilation albums - seem ok but will double check !!
Playlists - until I found the free programme "iTunes Export" I also could not replicate my iTunes playlists in Asset. Maybe others know an easier way but I couldn't find it.
Finally as you can no doubt tell, I am no "techie" but I believe Asset does convert ALAC files on the fly to WAV. Certainly the "Stream Info" display on the Uniti tells me my ALAC files are 44.1kHz WAV.
Posted on: 04 February 2011 by David
Paul, I have been using Asset for quite a while how, a couple of points regarding your experience:
Compliation Albums - agree with you that these can be all over the place, but this is due to the ripping and tags, not Asset. You can categorise them as you wish by adjusitng the tags (eg album artist). I also found that itunes had an interesting way of filing complilations with artist taking precedence over album.
Album artwork - I have mixed results from a database ripped by itunes, but 100% success with files ripped by the Asset sister product dbpoweramp CD ripper. Asset works best with a jpg of the artwork called folder.jpg in the same folder as the music files.
David
Compliation Albums - agree with you that these can be all over the place, but this is due to the ripping and tags, not Asset. You can categorise them as you wish by adjusitng the tags (eg album artist). I also found that itunes had an interesting way of filing complilations with artist taking precedence over album.
Album artwork - I have mixed results from a database ripped by itunes, but 100% success with files ripped by the Asset sister product dbpoweramp CD ripper. Asset works best with a jpg of the artwork called folder.jpg in the same folder as the music files.
David
Posted on: 05 February 2011 by mrspoon
For compilation albums, you can either create an 'Album Artist', but for true compilation albums where there is no single album artist (no need to set as Various Artists), you can create a tag on all the tracks for the album of:
Compilation
set to: 1
Album art can be read by Asset if it is:
Embedded, folder.jpg, cover.jpg, [albumname].jpg, or any of the previous as .png
iTunes often will hold the artwork for its own rips in its internal database, it is not friendly in that other applications which access the files will not find artwork, or if you move the tracks to a new PC (even with iTunes on it) the artwork does not go with the tracks.
Compilation
set to: 1
Album art can be read by Asset if it is:
Embedded, folder.jpg, cover.jpg, [albumname].jpg, or any of the previous as .png
iTunes often will hold the artwork for its own rips in its internal database, it is not friendly in that other applications which access the files will not find artwork, or if you move the tracks to a new PC (even with iTunes on it) the artwork does not go with the tracks.
Posted on: 06 February 2011 by Paul53
I must say a quick thanks to all the forum users who took the trouble to post and offer me help. Things are better now, compilations are behaving more predictably and I've almost got playlists under control (as long as the songs aren't on the NAS, I really don't understand what's going on there.)
I now believe my problem comes from my use of a Seagate NAS and not a "proper" (and more expensive) music server. Ho hum, you live and learn.
Paul
I now believe my problem comes from my use of a Seagate NAS and not a "proper" (and more expensive) music server. Ho hum, you live and learn.
Paul
Posted on: 09 February 2011 by Paul53
Continuing with this thread.............................
Will Asset uPnP stream Apple Lossless files to my Uniti?
Strangely I recall that Asset did at one time stream ALACs, but now the Naim tells me it "can't play" the file. Has Asset v3 changed, have I flicked a switch somewhere in the software, or am I just totally confused.
Thanks
P.
Will Asset uPnP stream Apple Lossless files to my Uniti?
Strangely I recall that Asset did at one time stream ALACs, but now the Naim tells me it "can't play" the file. Has Asset v3 changed, have I flicked a switch somewhere in the software, or am I just totally confused.
Thanks
P.
Posted on: 09 February 2011 by David
Paul
I believe that Asset will transcode to WAV which should allow you to play ALAC on the Qute.
Check the asset configuration.
David
I believe that Asset will transcode to WAV which should allow you to play ALAC on the Qute.
Check the asset configuration.
David
Posted on: 10 February 2011 by Paul53
Hello David et al,
Thanks for the reply, you are correct. I have got Asset to stream ALAC files to my Uniti - but getting it to work was complex.
Let me explain - I rip CDs into itunes in the Apple Lossless format. Those files will NOT play on the Naim via Asset. If I re-code those ALAC files via dbpoweramp, setting the output format again as ALAC, they do play on the NAIM via Asset.
Can someone explain please?
I'm sure I read somewhere that this difference was to do with 24bit v 16 bit ALAC files, but I might be wide of the mark.
Help please?
Thanks
Paul
Thanks for the reply, you are correct. I have got Asset to stream ALAC files to my Uniti - but getting it to work was complex.
Let me explain - I rip CDs into itunes in the Apple Lossless format. Those files will NOT play on the Naim via Asset. If I re-code those ALAC files via dbpoweramp, setting the output format again as ALAC, they do play on the NAIM via Asset.
Can someone explain please?
I'm sure I read somewhere that this difference was to do with 24bit v 16 bit ALAC files, but I might be wide of the mark.
Help please?
Thanks
Paul