Third Man Direct To Acetate recordings

Very cool!

Love The Kills, and the SS should be pretty good too. Look forward to hearing these...

Hope Jack does one also.

Jack has always been an analogue man. This is great news and the price of the albums is very reasonable at $15. 

Analogue forever. 

Direct cut recordings have always been the best analogue recordings.

Almost all 78 records were direct cut, apart from a few very late [1950- 1952, typically] examples, and some that were edited from a direct cut transfer remaster from the actual master cut. Of course there is no post production manipulation and no chance to edit slips. Also it requires an real performance rather than laying down tracks one at a time.

When analogue tape and the LP arrived the actual technical quality of recordings dropped significantly, and it would be several years before analogue tape could produce the same quality as could be brought out from a direct cut 78 master.

I believe that the only really honest way of recording is that which is done in one take - at least per section of music, such as a symphonic movement for example - and it is best if there is no post production alteration, so these direct cut acetates should produce very enjoyable results.

ATB from George

We can definitely agree on that George.  The fewer stages in the process the better. The most important thing here though is there is no digital interference and I'm sure for those that do, like yourself, listen to digital formats the quality of the digital transfer for download files will benefit in SQ also.

ATB

Steve

Dear Steve,

I have no issue with well made digital recordings or well made analogue tape recordings. Any well made recording will bring us to the music and music making.

Direct cut does have a visceral quality that is inevitably diluted to some degree with multiple stages of re-editing and re-mastering! Each stage in the digital chain should actually be less damaging than each equivalent stage in an analogue scheme. Even first generation analogue master copy tapes were less fine the the parent tape, and this shows in the quality of vinyl pressed from the first generation tapes in different territories - generally the best vinyl pressings were made local to the the recording itself, or at least where the reference master tape was held and used in generating the pressing parts.

What is extra-ordinary to me is that you can get a quality from 78 metal master parts that in their digital re-incarnations gives far superior quality to the commercially available shellac pressings. For example I recent purchased the large EMI CD set [19 discs] of Sir Adrian Boults complete HMV [and World Record Club] EMI recordings of the music of Elgar.

Needless to say that these recordings are legendary, and for all the right reasons. Contained within is the luminous Second Symphony recording set down at Bedford Grammar School with the BBC SO in 1944. If the venue seems strange this is because after the BBC SO left London for Bristol in the first months of WW II, it was then bombed out of its new Bristol home and spend the duration at Bedford. As it happens the Bedford School provided an excellent hall for concerts broadcasts and recordings. This was one of the first HMV recordings made with the benefit of the full frequency [actually up 14 kHz] recording techniques that sprang from Decca and EMI's work on submarrine detection at the time.

The transfer is effectively silent, and the metal parts must still be pristine 69 years on. The result is fiery and yet poised performance delivered in a recording that only displays its historical aspect by being in mono! It is significantly finer than any 1950s recording of the Symphony made on tape and issued on vinyl at the time. It is quite extra-ordinary how well the orchestra played, and it is crucial also to remember that no editing of any kind could be applied. In a sense it is as close as a recording in "studio" conditions could approach the sense of a live recording. Every side was in effect a real performance, and what also strikes me is how expert these performers had become at keeping continuity across 12 sides! I know where the joins are, because I knew the original 78s as a child, but nobody I have played this recording to could get within three decades of its age or guess where the side breaks are!

The famous 1976 recording Boult did of the Symphony [one of his very last] has a more expansive quality to the sound, a quite similar musical reading, and a recording that glosses over many of the details of orchestration that are laid bare - as they are in a great concert hall with a skilled live performance - to the great benefit of the music. I bought the full-priced HMV record on first issue in 1977. With the aid of a modern digital restoration applied to both the 1944 and 1976 recordings it becomes clear that the 1944 recording is superior in every respect: clarity, musical drive, orchestral virtuosity, balance of musical lines, and most of all a deep music involvement.

I am sure that the 1976 recording could have been more acutely balanced, but recordings tended at that time to major more on an expansive acoustic setting than the more musical [if less comfortable] sounds of an orchestra playing in a relatively dry acoustic such as found in the Royal Festival Hall where every detail is easily perceived.

In a strange way the 1976 recording seems to be an example of the typical classical recording of the 1970s, and the 1944 one is un-typical of either the earlier [very dry] style of orchestral recording on 78s or the later more obviously expansive analogue style recordings of the tape era.

It is a fascinating thing for me to see that technical advances in recording do not always bring more musical results.

A return to direct cut recordings is welcomed here!

ATB from George

I ordered a couple today ( The Shins and The Kills). $15 a pop seems fairly reasonable.

I thought you were talking about the movie!

I used to like him a lot, but he seems to have become annoying.  (Jack White, not Carol Reed).

Copy of Seasick Steve just arrived, not listened to it yet will report back after a few listens. Only minor quibble is that it comes in a 12" single style sleeve, although a very nicely presented one.

Matt, be interested to know your view on The Shins & The Kills

Cheers

Richard

By the way it cost £18.99 plus £3.50 postage from an independent record store in UK

Will do Richard. At $15 I feel I got a pretty good deal compared to the other side of the ocean. Then again I have bought more than my share of UK and EU imports where the reverse was true.

Matt

Hi Matt,

Been busy with workload, so not taken SS for a spin yet.

I paid £18.99 plus postage for SS in UK which I think is reasonable for an import LP. However I just noticed that the same store here in the UK are advertising the Shins & Kill titles for only £11.99 and they are not listed as imports whereas the SS is.

Of course you are fortunate to be able to buy direct from Third Man records, which having checked the website for some reason only ships to North America

Will try to get listening again in a couple of days

Cheers

Richard

Hi Richard,

Just was texted by FEDEX that my Shins and Kills have been delivered. Hopefully I will get a chance to give them a spin tonight. I have heard of Seasick Steve but have never heard his music. How would you describe it?

I know what you are saying about imports. Back during the nadir of vinyl production here in the States, the early 1990s to a few years ago, the vast majority of my vinyl purchases were imports. That tended to get a little pricey, but the pressings were generally very good so I went with it. There is such a plethora of "domestic" vinyl these days it is hard to pick and choose. Now that is something I never thought I would see 10 years ago.

Matt

I had high expectations of this record but having given my copy of Seasick Steve a few plays I have to say that overall it has left me feeling disappointed.

Firstly it comes in a 12” single style sleeve, although it has a poly lined inner. It is pressed on a lightweight vinyl (120gm?). I have bought other Third Man titles by Dead Weather & The Raconteurs which have been lovingly pressed on quality 180gm vinyl but this is not the case here. Side A is pressed off centre with my Ekos Dynavector D3 markedly tracking to and fro although I didn’t notice any audible effect. The pressing is not particularly quiet with a fair bit of surface noise, but more noticeable particularly on side B is a low end groove rumble or modulation noise, maybe that’s a side effect of the direct cut process I don’t know?

The recording quality is in my opinion nothing to write home about, it is a good sounding Live recording which at times does give a sense of being in the audience and captures the ambient space of the recording venue, but nothing particularly special and the performance seems to have a rather hurried feel to it.

This is not what I have come to expect from Jack White and his Third Man Records label, who usually has a respected reputation for carefully produced quality all analogue recordings, mastering and pressings.  So what went wrong here? Why go to the effort of doing a direct cut recording then wasting all its potential by presenting it on a less than best quality pressing? It appears in my view that the “Direct To Acetate” badge in this instance is more about marketing hype than any real commitment to audiophile standards.

Richard

I have the Shins album, which I reviewed (I think) in the new vinyl thread.

Basically - I've enjoyed it as there are no other official live Shins albums, and I haven't come across any bootlegs.  it was $14  or $15 here in the US, a completely standard price for an LP or even a CD these days.  

However, the whole direct to disc thing is a non starter as the recording doesn't seem to have been done that well for all the fuss. Sounds like a boxy rock concert hall, and doesn't capture the energy well. certainly not as "live" as many (hundreds, thousands?) of Dead sound board recordings. Nowhere even close to Reference Recordings, which I consider to have made best live sound quality in my collection (too bad they only do classical, but what they do is stunning.)

I felt it was well worth my $14, but all their noise about it promises something fantastic.

I also have received my Shins (and The Kills). The Shins is not the best sounding live LP I 've ever heard for certain. It is kind of fuzzy sounding in spots and as noted doesn't capture the energy of a band performing live. I thought that the Kills LP came out much better. A real sense of groove and much better sound. I am not ticked off, but I think Richard is right on about it being more of a victory of marketing than great recordings.

Thanks Richard. I'll cancel my order on the strength of that. Disappointing really. 

Also cancelled.

Richard (2000),

What TT and system are you using? I assume an LP12 as you mention the Ekos. 

By the way, you can't have one side pressed off centre without the other. This effect is usually due to an off centre label.

ATB

Steve

Lingo/LP12/Ekos/Dynavector Karat d3/Prefix/HiCap

Sorry Steve, but have to disagree, I know it seems odd but it is possible to have one side of a record pressed off centre, it is not the first time I have encountered this and this Seasick Steve is definitely pressed off centre on one side, not the label. I am not sure how this can happen, perhaps stampers can be slightly misaligned on one side, who knows? This subject has cropped up on another Naim forum topic and it would appear that this is not an uncommon problem.

Cheers

Richard

According to Third Man records website they only ship within North America. My copy in the UK came from a reputable independent record store (Resident Records Brighton) as an "import" LP.

Cheers

Richard

Perhaps we should email our comments to Jack White/Third Man Records. They surely have the potential here to produce some worthy records and maybe just need some constructive criticism to take some extra care on the recording & final pressing quality

Cheers

Richard

Good idea Richard. More likely to produce results than critiquing on the forum. Any feedback on the Seasick Steve?

Matt

Matt, see above for my comments re SS

Richard