Naim DAC and Sonos debate - blind testing

I think sonos has done a very nice job of voicing their kit but you should have little trouble with this if you just listen to a minute of one and then the other. Avoid trying to hear a difference with quick switching. SN dac is enough to notice, for me anyway.

I started a thread about blind-testing a CDX2 vs. Sony BDP, both into nDAC: https://forums.naimaudio.com/di...ent/2833539987655410

Difference was rather negligible, to my ears...

Although, I wouldn´t sell my Naim kit. No way!

I bought a Sonos ZP90 when they first linked up with Spotify. I didn't try it's analogue outputs but took the digital out into my SuperNait. Majority of home CDs are aiff's on a NAS. Liked it so much there's a ZP90 in the lounge as well now, and a S5 in the kitchen.
Elevated it to another level with a demo of NDAC, to the extent that a week after returning the demo unit I'd ordered one. The Sonos, as well as sounding great through the NDAC, is just so user friendly!

John

Don't sell your Naim kit, whatever the result of the test, for three reasons:
- Assuming that your brain plays a part in your experience of what you have, so far, considered the Naim sound, once you don't have the black boxes you don't have the sound anymore, anyway;
- Naim gear is beautiful; why settle for anonymous boxes when your brain uses that beauty, too, for configuring Naim sound?
- Naim gear is reliable. Whatever trick it plays, it will always work the same way on you. I've found that in the universe of cheating that the world of Audio is, Naim is a bit like Austria: a nice place that will always be where you look for it, the way you expect to find it.

M.

As if I will but it makes a good dramatic backdrop - although if it comes out negative I am not sure how I will feel.... ;o)

I cannot comment on the the NDAC, but have conducted a blind test between: -

Sonos ZP90(digital Co-ax)/N-vi/NAP 200/Monitor Audio RS8's

against the N-vi disc player/NAP 200/Monitor Audio RS8's

What I can say is that as an interface the Sonos (with the CR200 remote or iPad app) it is a great system.  Easy to set up and use.

However I (and my blind listening panel) were all surprised (and a little disappointed) that the sound of the Sonos was no where as good as the N-vi.  The only way to describe the Sonos sound (when compared - it does sound OK on its own) is that there is a veil over the sound.  You lose lots of detail and it just sounds flat and lifeless when compared to the N-vi.

Now given that the N-vi is a compromise as a CD source, then you can only begin to think of the difference between the Sonos and other higher end Naim kit.  Maybe Sonos/NDAC may be different, but I would be surprised.

What it has done is give me great anticipation for the NDX.  The Sonos has sold me on distributed audio, just that the quality of my CD is still better.  If I could get the same sound with the Sonos convenience, then I would be very happy.  Maybe the NDX will do this, but we will have to wait and see.

Andrew

How did you do the blind test? I would be very interested.

I am with you. The Sonos/NDac/282/200/2x hicap/Neat Ultimatum MF5s is a good enough set up for me and to my ears the NDAC makes a huge difference - as you say almost removes the veil.

lamby - what would also be interesting is if you chucked some other sources/digital transport into the mix here too.  Although I realise that might complicate things and does digress somewhat from what you were trying to prove.  Anyway, interested to read about your findings.

I think that is it's biggest asset , a lack of Faff . If you want to stream music , listen to radio and access music services like Spotify with an easy interface it's very difficult to beat .

Interesting analogy....

I just did a comparison between Sonos > Naim DC1 > SuperNait DAC vs. CDX2.2 > Hiline > SuperNait/FCXS. The music I listened to was a Deutsche Grammophon recording of Joseph Haydn's Concerto for Violoncello and Orchestra in C major, first on CD and then as a WAV file ripped by and played off an old HP Compaq nc6000 laptop using a standard MS Mediaplayer. I was gobsmacked when I heard how good the WAV file sounded played via Sonos into the SN DAC as I was hardly able to tell the difference between the two, in fact I couldn't. Now I am thinking, should I trade in my CDX2.2 for the NDX or stick with the CDP and buy the nDAC instead, to then stream into it via Sonos or off a Macbook Pro? It would pain me to part with the CDX2.2. But aren't I just putting off the inevitable holding on to it?

Or a UnitiServe and nDAC perhaps .. means you can sell your CDP straight away without having to rip all your cds, as the UnitiServe can be used to play. As you get time, your cd collection will get ripped, all within the control of a total Naim system - no Sonos/Apple third parties to confuse things. No ethernet cabling  to install, or wireless network issues either.

So, in my understanding, things come to the following point:
- the fact of putting a Sonos system into a Naim DAC seems  as good soundwise as putting a CDX2 into it or a HDX;
- therefore, using a Sonos instead of a "bare" HDX or Unitiserve through NDAC is really a choice of conveniency, ease to use, preference in the interface and quality of the multi-room device you choose to go with;
Am I right, or did  I miss something?

Regards,

Arnaud

Arnaud

You missed something.  One person's opinion of a one shot trial in the context of his particular system with his very own ears. Your mileage may vary as they say.

Cal

Arnaud,

Your conclusions don't follow. First my Sonos ZP90 streams into the SuperNait's onboard DAC not the Naim DAC, different things!! Given my experience you might conclude that Sonos streamed into the SN's DAC can be as good sounding as a CDX2.2 but it needn't be necessarily so. This would depend a) on the quality of the file being streamed and b) on the amplification in place, I would imagine. Same set up into a 282/250 or higher might produce different results, don't know. 

Second, both the HDX and UnitiServe can stream upwards of 16/41, something Sonos cannot. It is limited to 16/48 max. The higer res the source file the better the final SQ, especially through the external nDAC. So while Sonos can deliver very good results, it is not on par with the HDX or UnitiServe.

Whether Sonos can produce the same results as a CDX2.2. into the Naim DAC is something that I have not tested and cannot comment on. What I can say is that there were contributions on the previous forum by members who streamed WAV files off a NAS via Sonos into a Naim DAC/555PS/552/500 system and compared it to the results of their CD555/555PS and while the CD555 came out on top the results where apparently quite acceptable. 

You can draw your own conclusions from this but needless to say you are best advised to do your own comparisson tests. People hear differently and what might work for one may not sound satisfactory to others at all. 

Personally, on second thoughts I doubt I will change to the NDX, seem like an awful lot of money to spend for a streamer and Internet radio. Unless it beats the Naim DAC, I don't see the point really. Too early to tell.

Best 
tp

Too many changes from my current system. Addition of the Naim DAC and a Macbook Pro seems like a good way to go. The Serve is way too expensive for what it does. Sorry, but it is the biggest rip off in the Naim hyrarchie of things, thinks me. Bit perfect maybe but software can do the same on a PC or Mac, pretty sure about that. Good if you don't need to worry about money, maybe, but way overpriced in today's economic climate. Had a chap over the other day who I bought a NAT 101 from and he had all his music ripped onto his Macbook Pro using PureMusic. It sounded bloody good via optical cable into my SuperNait already. It is early days in digital music still, lots of new developments to come and software may play a big role in future. No reason why a high res file off a Macbook streamed into a Naim DAC solution should not sound as good as it gets. I want to experiement starting off small first before taking a plunge into the deep end. May leave you lots of change out of pocket but no better off at all....

thank you Totemphile, that's interesting!
I feel that all so many changes brought by streamed music make it difficult to follow and to settle on an opinion, at least for me.
That's why it's great to have feedbacks and to have A/B personnal auditions, I agree.

Regards

Arnaud

I added a ZP90 to my Naim system last year to dip my toe into the world of streaming (having demoed a Qute).

It's killer advantages in my view are

design & reliability - works flawlessly, very easy to set up - as said above "like Austria" or more traditionally does exactly what it says on the tin
integration with i-tunes - no faffing about to play apple lossless files on my network drive, this is critical for me - Naim please take note
control - i-pod/pad app is excellent and means I don't have to spend nearly £300 on a controller and it's no extra charge - Naim take note again
price - excellent value for money

one thing I have found - having the NAS attached directly to the ZP90 and powered from the tacima power strip plugged into the same double gang socket as my Graham's hydra has a significant negative effect on the sound quality of my system.  This may be NAS dependent, but I've had no problems streaming wirelessly from another room, so I'd recommend anyone who finds Sonos SQ significantly inferior to CD and has only used a local wired connection, on the assumption wired is best, to try streaming from another room.

Only significant disadvantage is no hi-res capability, but I'll have had £300 of value out of the units by the time that becomes a aerious constraint.

Anyway toe-dipped, I got my second unit in my Xmas stocking and it's odds on I won't get through 2011 without adding a third.

Olly

Right now, i'm testing:

Ipod 160g + Wadia 170 + nDac+ SN into Totem Model 1 Sig

and

MacMini + Sonos + nDac + SN into Totem Model 1 Sig

Absolutely no doubts, the Ipod/Wadia 170 sounds deeper and better soundstage. Lets not forget that Sonos ZP90 streams wireless.

Then I took out the nDac to try just with the SN dac. Both ways. Again, the winner is the Ipod/Wadia config but less clarity, fluidity and deepness. So, for me, my best setup for now is with an Ipod. Incredible. But I think that Sonos is very very convenient and I like when music is background or when I have to listen to very low volume when everyone sleeps in the house and I'm still up, rockin!!!

Yes Arnaud, that's what I did. Both (Ipod/Wadia and Sonos) were in the NDac.

I'm using WAV files ripped and streamed from Unitiserve into Rega DAC into naim amp and also Sonos s90 into Rega DAC streaming Napster and whilst the Unitiserve into DAC provides superior experience, involvement and image etc the sonos streamed files are astonishingly good given the source. Interesting that when I use the sonos as streamer and DAC (digital output) sounds flat and uninteresting. Suppose it shows what a good DAC can do?