Naim DAC and Sonos debate - blind testing

Posted by: lamby2244 on 07 February 2011

Hi there

On another forum I have been having fun time in a thread about the benefits/value of putting a DAC in your system. The root of the discussion is that I can hear the difference the NDAC makes in my system but I am being bombarded with data about how blind tests show that there is no audible difference in most kit, particularly amps. Anyway I was wondering what you lot had to say and whether there were any examples of blind tests that showed a positive result for high-end kit?

The heart of it is that the chap is arguing that speakers are the key to your system potential, which is interesting as the move from Ruark CL20s to Neat Ultimatum MF5s was my most significant upgrade....

Anyway I am going to do my own blind test -

1. NDAC vs Sonos onboard DAC vs Benchmark through my 282/200/2xHicap setup
2. ZP120 vs Sonos/NDAC/282/200/2xhicap (this seems mad but hey I am going for it)

You might think I am mad but I now have something to prove - even if it is to myself.

Oh yes and the spice in the mix is that if the test is negative I sell my Naim kit......
Posted on: 20 September 2011 by matpip

Marley, also consider that the SN can be nicely improved with a Hicap, which also indirectly improves the internal dac. 

OTOH, the the superuniti can be upgraded with a NAP200, but this combo will be quite more expensive. Value for money, always the same problem!

Posted on: 21 September 2011 by Marley

Matpip:

 

Pardon me, but what benefit would the SU get when added a Nap200? Does this mean more dedicated power for the preamp stage coz the power part would be handled by Nap200?

 

As for now, I am NOT thinking on upgrading anytime soon, this system is already too much on its own (for me anyway) SQ wise, so it all comes down to actual hearing and Im more inclined in minimal boxes. So integrated amplification only. Just torn between this new SU or the previous SN. Btw I've already heard the CD5XS/SN combo and it is just wonderful. Am just contemplating while for an additional cost I can already get the SU and not have to buy a sonos and there's an improvement SQ wise then IMHO, it is the better VFM option

Posted on: 21 September 2011 by Marley

Matpip:

 

Pardon me, what's the difference between able to add a HIcap compared to a Nap200? I think 80W / channel

is good enough for loud listening volumes for S400.

 

Btw, can the SU be used to power a phono preamp? Say stageline? Because I am planning to use it also for LP playback.

Posted on: 22 September 2011 by GrahamFinch
I thought the original post was about a Sonos and Naim dac. Anyway, I purchased a Sonos zp90 and initially fed a digital out to a Cambridge dacmagic and then a Naim dac. Both dacs improved the sound and I was very happy with the Sonos/Naim dac until recently when I got the NDX. I will now use the Sonos with my office system. You must judge for yourself whether the Naim dac is worth it in the context of the rest of your system. For me it was wirthwhile and a stepping stone to where I am now.
Posted on: 22 September 2011 by DT79
Graham, do you use the NDX with the Naim DAC, or on it's own?
Posted on: 22 September 2011 by matpip

Yes correct Marley, the NAP addition releases the internal trafo from power section duty, hence the streming/dac/preamp sections get more juice.

Similarly (in logic term), an added hicap provides juice to the preamp section only of the supernait, leaving the internal trafo taking care of the rest.

In both cases, adding a box is equivalent to add a source of power and splitting the duties.

Posted on: 22 September 2011 by matpip
Originally Posted by Marley:

Matpip:

 

Pardon me, but what benefit would the SU get when added a Nap200? Does this mean more dedicated power for the preamp stage coz the power part would be handled by Nap200?

 

Yes, correct. When you add a NAP200, the streaming/dac/preamp section get juice from the internal trafo, while the power section is handled by the NAP. 

Similarly, an added hicap takes care of the preamp section of the supernait, while internal trafo handle dac and power section. In both cases, you add a source of power and you split the duties between internal and external trafos.

Posted on: 23 September 2011 by GrahamFinch
Originally Posted by DT79:
Graham, do you use the NDX with the Naim DAC, or on it's own?

I am using the NDX wth the Naim DAC. Initially the DAC was using its native power supply but I later added my 555ps (from the cds3) and that's how I am currently using it.

 

However, the NDX DAC combo on its own sounded very good indeed. The 555ps on the DAC takes it to another level.

 

Part of the original question was about using the DAC on a Sonos ZP90 and I have to say this worked very  well for me. For some a cheaper dac may seem a better proposition for the Sonos depending on their overall system and their upgrade aspirations.

 

The Sonos wasn't shown up by the Naim DAC.

 

On a general point I have found that adding power supplies always brings improvements to sound quality but, again depending on the level of lit there are sometimes difficulties in deciding which one to add first.

Posted on: 23 September 2011 by DT79
Ok thanks Graham. I was curious as I'm using Sonos digitally in to my SN and the obvious upgrade path is either to a Naim DAC or to substitute (or probably supplement) the Sonos with something like an NDX or a ND5XS. However I'm pretty wedded to the Sonos usability/interface plus have it in several rooms, so ideally I'd not want to switch to something else for the lounge. How much experimentation of different combos did you do out of interest? Did you try Sonos & nDAC versus bare NDX by any chance? Cheers Dan
Posted on: 23 September 2011 by sound_dust
This might seem controversial, but I've just spent the afternoon comparing a sonos zp90 into Supernait DAC (digital) and sonos into Supernait via good 'ol analogue. I can't tell the difference.
Posted on: 23 September 2011 by DT79
Originally Posted by sound_dust:
This might seem controversial, but I've just spent the afternoon comparing a sonos zp90 into Supernait DAC (digital) and sonos into Supernait via good 'ol analogue. I can't tell the difference.

Interesting.  What speakers and ancillaries are you using and what sort of files are you playing back?

Posted on: 23 September 2011 by intothevoid
.

Originally Posted by sound_dust:

       

         class="quotedText">
        This might seem controversial, but I've just spent the afternoon comparing a sonos zp90 into Supernait DAC (digital) and sonos into Supernait via good 'ol analogue. I can't tell the difference.



Really!? I found the difference to be MASSIVE. The on board dac in the ZP90 is ok but, to my ears, the SN dac leaves it for dust.

steve
Posted on: 23 September 2011 by sound_dust
Chord Prodac for digital innercconnect, kimber hero for analogue innercconnect into Quad 12L speakers.
Posted on: 23 September 2011 by sound_dust
Also going to test on some higher res stuff through my NAS drive, initial tests where through the rhapsody service via sonos.
Posted on: 24 September 2011 by DT79
Hmm, I think that might explain it! I'd like to know what you find with >=16/44.1 uncompressed/lossless material.
Posted on: 24 September 2011 by sound_dust
Yes it is interesting, will do some further tests on some better quality source music. But I've got to admit I was surprised. Will report back.
Posted on: 24 September 2011 by matpip
Originally Posted by DT79:
Ok thanks Graham. ..... Did you try Sonos & nDAC versus bare NDX by any chance? Cheers Dan

Dan, I have the same curiosity...I have now a squeezebox touch directly into my SNdac, and the most logic upgrade would be the DAC, but sometimes I just wonder if I should scrap the Squeezebox and go for NDX or ND5XS. Anyone tried SbTouch+DAC vs bare NDX?

Posted on: 24 September 2011 by AndrewH13
Originally Posted by DT79:
Hmm, I think that might explain it! I'd like to know what you find with >=16/44.1 uncompressed/lossless material.


Maybe, maybe not!  I have had a Sonos into a Tag AV32/5x100 (6ks worth with upgrades)  for a couple of years (tried analogue and digital connection) and it's sound was wanting. Added a Rega DAC and even with 320 mp3s, there is a world of difference. I really found the Sonos internal DAC to be night and day against the Rega.

 

My Tag is now starting to show Error Codes and I do not want to spend anymore on it so am considering returning to the Naim fold (140 Pre/Power before moving to Tag for AV-all-in-one)

 

Wondering whether Sonos into SuperNait (plus combining with Onkyo/Pioneer just for films), replacing Sonos and Tag with SuperUnity (will it be up to my current system?) or NDX with SuperNait and separate AV amp. And just read DX5 comes into the equation!

 

Suppose what it comes down to:

 

is SuperUnity (maybe), DX5 (hopefully), NDX (would expect!) likely to be significantly better than my Sonus/Rega combo? If I switch to Naim Streaming/Amplification I would also need an AV amp for non 2-channel duties but heard Unity Gain on Naim amps can allow integration.

 

 

Posted on: 24 September 2011 by AndrewH13

Sorry, meant ND5 XS above, not sure where I got DX5 from!

Posted on: 24 September 2011 by DT79
Yes, unity gain works well on the naim amps - that's what I'm doing with mine - integrating my SN/Neats for front channel duties with home cinema. I think that my Sonos works really well into the SN DAC, it's more curiosity than anything else that leads me to think about nDACs and NDXs and the like, rather than anything being left wanting (IMO of course), so I'd say you should try all the options for your self.
Posted on: 25 September 2011 by Marley
Originally Posted by sound_dust:

       

         class="quotedText">
        Yes it is interesting, will do some further tests on some better quality source music. But I've got to admit I was surprised. Will report back.




Looking forward to your report!
I am somewhat convinced that buying the SU would be better VFM as compared to getting a SN then a separate streamer if you are starting to build your hifi setup. Otherwise just get the standalone nDac as it is IMHO it is the most versatile of the new naim digital lineup.

Cant wait to audition both combos!