equipment switched on

And as usual with debates which call into question ones personal ethical and moral approach, political semantics begin.

We have the usual flippant "hippy", "moral high ground/high hoarse" and " pretentious green party activists" to name a few...and I am sure there will be more to follow. 

Although, it seems that 90% percent of posters are actually consciously doing something, except turn their Naim gear off. So it seems there is a little 'happy hippy' in all of us.

But I guess there will always be the odd person who just doesn't give a shit. 

Jason

Dear Jason,

For the avoidance of doubt, I am a Tory or Liberal voter - Liberal  at the last election.

So no Green Party supporter - they are too left wing for me. And no hippy either.

Far from it, though I am no accepter of so called received wisdom ...

In 1973, aged 11, I first questioned my biology teacher - Mr.Arnold Darlington, try a google, it will be interesting - about sustainability. He suggested that I had a very unusual position for an 11 year old, and told me to remain vigilant on the subject. There is nothing new in the World.

ATB from George

Mine was 2.51, local food, vegetarian, 1 flight to Paris, no car travel, a cool house, and how does anyone keep a dog properly fed and regular check-ups for under £300 a year? Utter baloney (on rye). I'm sure the fact I bought a fridge counts against me, but it replaces 2 inefficient old ones. This is OUTRAGEOUS.... 

It is never outrageous to consider the future of the human race.

ATB from George

But it is to tell other people how to live.

Chris

Well I've considered it and

1) I demand a recount

2) I want to be a Morlock (I hate sunbathing and frolicking and being eaten)

Dear Chris,

Absolutely not to tell anyone anything, but it is certainly to help them consider for themselves, how they might live.

That is the responsibility of every thinking human. To promote thought and action as a voluntary response.

ATB from George

Do you not think that they might have worked out for themselves what they think without your endless proselytizing?

Chris

More than apparently not!

ATB from George

PS: Each time this comes up I point out the truths, and eventually it gets buried in the dross in the Padded Cell. One day the powers that be will ban me, and that will be that. But I have only two decades left, so if I cannot persuade people in the mean time it will be their descendants who suffer ...

You appear to believe you are the one with the answers, with 'the truth'. Such certainty worries me. Oh and please spare us the melodrama of only two decades left! Our species always makes the best  of it, whatever any one Cassandra may counsel against.

Chris

Dear George,

You and I have long agreed that c.7 billion is too many for this planet. However.........

switching on/off Naim gear just doesn't enter the equation in any meaningful way at all - and you know that. You and Peter are just being your usual playful selves again.

Today, I have enjoyed giving 6x45 minute aerobatic lessons. Burning c.12 gallons an hour that's about 54 gallons not to mention the car fuel for the 60 mile round trip to the airfield and back. I get to do this or something similar, about five times a week. I don't even think about the energy cost of manufacturing and maintenance. Switching off the hifi, whilst I am at work is a pointless exercise in comparison. And if I did, I would have to invest in some serious mega-system to restore the original sound quality I was after when I bought my 24/7 Naim kit. The energy cost in new production would be daunting, not to mention the increased energy cost in running this mega-system even for short periods every evening.

Tomorrow is one of my days off. I am driving over to Breacon for some hill walking. Another 8 gallons of fuel up in smoke (I'm taking the petrol guzzeling estate rather than the frugal deisel just to annoy you !)

Then in a couple of weeks time i'm off to join Mrs D in Canada - another carbon bootprint in the sky - all spread over Greenland.

I just hope, really hope, that my friends who work a few miles away at Culham, manage to get this "fusion" thingy working soon, so that we can stop this stupid waste of resources on wind turbines that are littering our countryside and blocking shipping lanes in the Channel and North Sea. Then you and Peter and all your mates can travel around in electric trains, cars and bicycles, leaving a more plentiful supply of oil for me !

Apologies for being so apparantly selfish and thoughtless, but I am leaving my Naim kit on 24/7................there just ain't enough caves for us all to be eco-friendly reindeer hunters and berry eaters.

Cheers

Don

Dear Don,

I am off to bed now having digested two Poirots [David Suchet] this evening between posts here. The Naim is off, the ESLs are off, and shortly the modem will be off ...

Yes, I hope I retain a sense of humour, but I also have a rod of iron for a back-bone when it comes to sustainability.

I do not count any saving as being too small until one has achieved all that can be achieved. My WWF rating was 0.9, but for me this is at least twice too large, as one can only shift an average by being well away from it.

I hope that you will forgive waiting till tomorrow for a better answer to your post.

ATB from George

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Damn; I'm using a computer, and that's using 'the electric'.

Oh no!

John.

Wirr, click, wirr, click...

Don,

I take your point about the energy wasted by leaving your Naim system powered up as being small compared to energy used in some of your other activities. You are correct of course and you make a very valid point. But two wrongs do not make a right. I see on this thread many people attempting to justify leaving their systems switched on by making comparisons with large amounts of energy used/wasted elsewhere. This is missing the point entirely and side-stepping the issue.

The issue that we are considering is that it is wasteful of power to leave equipment switched on when it is not being used. Dress it up however you like, but that is the issue. I believe that there is no valid reason to leave a hi-fi system continuously powered up. If loss of performance results from not doing so then that is bad design and you should buy a brand where that does not occur if it troubles you.

Aside from the wider and more far reaching environmental issues, have you considered the effect at a personal level, ie. on your household electricity bill? I certainly would not want to fork out money to run equipment that I was not using!

Peter

If leaving a few Naim boxes on all the time will make any difference to the survival of this civilisation than it's probably had it anyway and the end will come one or two births sooner than it would otherwise. It probably won't finish off homo sapiens and I for one want to enjoy what's left of it.

The planet has seen worse than us, the appearance of photo synthesis, pre Cambrian ice age, end of the Permian, end of the Cretaceous, etc were all pretty devastating at the time and we're just as much a natural phenomenon, it'll get over us.

There's a very valid reason why I leave my Hi-Fi on. It sounds better that way. If it's a poor design then it's a lovely-sounding one.

The trouble you run into then is Mr. PandaCalculator assesses you as an even bigger Eco-wrecker...! And that (with the best will in the world) will affect peoples resolve to 'do anything' and have a bigger effect in the long run.

It's simple:  you have a choice.  When powered up, Naim kit is comparatively  quite efficient (always has been).  If you prefer to keep some or all of the kit powered up then that's your choice.  Yes, electronics prefer to kept in a steady state and performance is usually best when circuits are in this state and thoroughly warmed up.  This isn't just a Naim thing, but as Naim are totally focussed on optimum performance, of course they wouldn't keep this a secret.  But if you feel terrible pangs of guilt at having some or all of your kit powered up when not in use, then switch off.  Conscience salved, and Naim even provide a power switch for you to do this.

Personally, I usually take a middle course - digital source and pre and kept on most of the time, power amp and analog sources are powered down when not in use.  I usually power up at least half an hour before sitting down for a music session.

Roll on the Thorium future...

Do you have any typical standby (steady state) power consumption figures for Naim equipment? It's not a parameter that seems to be published in specifications.

AFAIK it's generally anywhere between 10 and 30W depending on the kit.  Member Jon Honeyball did some interesting measurements some years back.  Here's the thread;

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...ption---some-figures

Most interesting was the idle consumption of the NAP135 - 12.55W.  Compare that with an amp biased into class A where a three figure number wouldn't be at all unusual.  And if you run a big valve amp or true class A amp, best not even ask...

My remark on poor design was in relation to the need to power continuously in order to reach optimum performance, it was not a comment on the absolute performance of Naim electronics, which for me personally has never been equalled by anything else. But then I'm sure you knew that.

Maybe decades ago it didn't seem to be so important - just a marginal issue discussed by hippy-types gathered around a camp fire outside of their tin shacks. But nowadays it is very much a mainstream issue and taken very seriously indeed by world authorities. In this context I stand by my comment. I think that a hi-fi component that needs to be left to consume power continuously in order to sound as its designer intended is almost by definition in this context a bad design.

Peter

Peter, then it applies to just about all hifi.  Some may not be able to show the improvement of a warm up, but in my experience just about every piece of serious hifi kit has benefitted from being powered up for a while before sounding its best. Valve and Class A amps probably warmed up the fastest (and boy did they keep the room warm!) but then the amount of power consumed in an hour's warm up is probably equivalent to a few days with more efficient class B designs.

I suppose us blatant excess energy sucking terrorists (BEESTS) should feel ashamed.

Ah; what the heck. Join me in the Naim Action Group for Tomorrow's World Annihilation Task-Force (NAG TWA*), and keep that stuff powered-up.

I feel so bad, I'm off to flagellate myself with a rolled-up copy of 'The Flat Response'. Apparently; they can't touch you for it.

Cue Police loud-hailer in the street:-

"The house is surrounded. Flip that power switch off Sir, and STEP AWAY from the amplifier."

John.