equipment switched on

Richard,

Granted that most (or all) hi-fi electronics benefit from a warm-up period from cold. This has been my experience also, but usually things are sounding pretty good after around 30 - 60 minutes, with no real improvement afterwards. I rememeber I always used to try to switch on my A&R A60 around an hour before I wanted to listen and it was very worthwhile doing so.

Naim electronics do however seem to require a much longer time to warm up before they come on-song. My personal experience has been that some pieces can sound perfectly acceptable from cold but that after say a week of power-up you realise what was missing! Some pieces, thinking mainly of CD players, sounded pretty unlistenable until after being left powered up for a few days at least, and continued to show really worthwhile gains after a few weeks.

I don't pretend to understand what aspects of electronic design result in this susceptibility to warm up time, but it does seem to me that many Naim pieces are affected by it to a somewhat more pronounced degree than a good many other brands. From what I can gather many of the principles in say amplifier  design at Naim have remained fundamentally unchanged for decades, although obviously they have been refined and developed.

When these things were first designed the whole issue of energy conservation had not really become important. As I said before, just a marginal concern for a few people. Things are now looking very different indeed and in this context I do think that Naim need to take action to make their equipment less sensitive to warm-up. I appreciate though that this may prove no easy task and may require some quite radical design changes in order not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Peter

But seriously folks:-

I don't run a dishwasher, tumble-dryer, children, or the biggest energy sucker known to man - a woman; so I hardly think I'm having any impact on destroying the planet by running the equivalent of a few (proper!) light bulbs 24/7.

I've worked to purchase and enjoy my Naim equipment, and I want to maximise its performance and operational stability.

I'm a great believer in the maxim 'RTFM' too. It sez:-

"Better and more consistent performance will be achieved if the system is left switched on for long periods". 

John.

And/or .................

How long before the EEC Energy Police introduce regulations to force unused domestic electronics to enter a low-power state when not in use?

John.

I think we're in danger of making mountains out of molehills here. As a hobby 'HiFi' systems are pretty low in energy consumption compared with other hobbies. Even with 'green' hobbies like cycle racing the bikes are often transported to the venues on the back of cars or in vans. 

I hate waste and understand the need to recycle etc. but in the same way that I wouldn't turn my fridge freezer off for fear of spoiling my food I won't turn my system off as it means I'm not hearing my system at it's best. I turn of my TV, Denon AV receiver, Sky box, Creative CD/radio etc off when I use them as the SQ/viewing difference isn't noticeable. It's just not the same with low spec components. 

Yes we should do what we can to conserve energy and recycle but this business with HiFi is a drop in the ocean.

I moved from a CJ CA200 to a CJ LP70s around March this year.  185w solid state to 70 watts valve.  My power daily usage dropped by 10 % to 4.8 kwh a day compared to last year.  This may be due to more religious switching off.  The average in my area for equivalent small households is double that, or about 10.7kwh per day.

i have been looking for standby powered items that could go off and its only the modem and wifi.  That's it for compensating for an XPS, nDAC and the standby led on my preamp.

i pay a premium for carbon free power. 

Peter, George,

I believe you are both confusing the use of energy (electricity) with the waste of energy.

The use of energy needs to consider the overall use to achieve thedesired effect. The desired effect can usually be achieved in different ways. In the case of current Naim systems, the desired effect is achieved by leaving the kit powered up 24/7. This refelects the true use of energy, not waste. I'm pretty sure Roy George could design an amp that sounded the same regardless of whether it was cold or warmed up. But............how much energy would this revised amp consume and how many other precious resources would be consumed in its production and maintenance. And..........would it sound as good as a currently warmed up bit of Naim kit ?  I doubt it.

try not to confuse use with waste.

Cheers

Don

My DAC-V1 and NAP100 together consume approx. 15W on standby. This equates to an annual consumption of approx. 130KWh, if left switched on 24/7, which represents approx. 3% of my total annual consumption. It would be interest to know what some of these beautiful racks of 500 series equipment consume on standby? (just asking out of interest)

I think the NAP 500 has about a 60 watt idling power-consumption from memory. Richard?

Source items and pre-amps are lower, so my 555, 552, 500 probably equates to running a couple of old-fashioned light bulbs.

Cheap entertainment.

John.

As others have said, what happens to the 60 watt idle power in a 500 amp ?

This "waste" energy has to go somewhere. Again, as others have said, the central heating system doesn't seem to have to work quite so hard.

So not only is it enabiling the kit to perform as intended (or even better than intended), but its also keeping the winter cold at bay.

Very efficient. Should be made compulsary. George ! Stand by your Bed ! compulsary, mandatory, are you complying ?

Cheers

Don

Attached to last month's electric bill from our regional provider, XCel Energy, was an attachment showing three average usage numbers:  all our neighbors, all our "efficient" neighbors, and our home.  Was pleasantly surprised to see we used 34% less energy than our average "efficient" neighbor.

I immediately called XCel and asked them to re-calculate.  They must have somehow missed my Naim components being on 7x24!   

Actually, we did make an attempt at energy conservation: we installed high-efficiency HVAC systems, replaced our old windows with triple-glazed, argon filled designs, changed to LED bulbs, and added more insulation. If the costs keep coming down, then someday we'll even go really crazy, and add some solar panels to our roof.

IMO, the single biggest impact any of us can have on carbon footprint is to live close to where we work. That one single change can make up for dozens of minor sins, including enjoying our audio setups sounding their best. In fact, if I were to compare these two to other, more common sins, then having a 50 mile daily commute would be like...murder, and keeping your Naim setup turned on all the time would be more like, er, say... masterbation?

Guilty as charged yer honor! 

ATB.

Hook

+1

My Dad had a Dual TT, Philips CDP, Luxman LV104 and ugly Ruark speakers back in the old ages. But boy, they rocked on some tunes. Anyway, I remember one day, most likely back in 1986, I was trying to plug my measly Commodore 64 to play some games on the big TV. And bereft of unused holes, I turned of the integrated before I tried to plug the adapter of the console. Seeing me messing around my Dad almost scolded me saying "Do not turn off the amplifier again". It thought me a rule, whether right or wrong that I have followed so far.

As a bloke coming here from A class, tubes, and various hybrids Naim units seem plebeian affairs in terms of wall drain against those monstros. Really. I again vividly remember finding my cat Cotton Ball (crazy old hag I miss you much) curled against AA Class A integrated during the cold Manhattan mornings when the heater had its own mind to go off.

Excessive heat dissipation >> OK, waste

Almost cold to touch black boxes >> sustainable

On/off >> home appliance

My bottom feeder CD5si-Nait5i-2 combo come on song well after half disc playback even they are on 24/7?!

Hal

We switched to all LED bulbs too, and the electric bill really came down.  Boston is NOT a favorable geography for solar panels on the roof.  The angle of the sun is pretty low, there are many cloudy days, and we will not live in our present residence long enough to see any payback at all.  Otherwise, I'd be happy to put panels up there and sell some juice back to the power co.

I installed two Nest internet-enabled thermostats, and they are quite helpful.  From anywhere in the world (and yes I've done it from Europe), I can monitor the inside and outside temps and adjust the heating or cooling as desired.  They are a fine product.

I *have* taken to turning off my Qute.  I only play it every other day or so, and have not noticed any undesirable sonic ramifications. 

Are you the same St George that was delighting us with his story of a 700 mile tour in some ancient Japanese petrol car?  I think we should be told

Dear Bluedog,

I have a very small Japanese car, though it was built in the UK at Sunderland and has a petrol motor based on the excellent 1275 cc Austin "A-series" engine though with twin cams [four valve per pot, not for power but lower emissions] and proper engine management.

I think the idea of a 700 mile tour in it would be most unhappy! It could be done under sufferance!

But not by me!!

I am insured on a limited mileage, which is most unlikely to be exceeded! All I have to do if I go over 2000 miles in the year is let them know ... So far the car has done slightly better than fifty miles per gallon ...

This thread has made nice and honest progress. Some interesting and candid answers ...

I think the important thing is probably the absolute level of fuel consumption, either direct or indirect such as flying, trains, or omnibus/coach travel, and obviously fuel used in the home as gas, electricity and central heating oil. Also the degree to which we consume heavy carbon footprint foods and beverages. Bottled water is terrible waste for example when there is perfectly potable water in the tap.  Dairy products and meats are carbon footprint heavy, and can be minimised. Vegetables are far less deleterious!

As for wasting electricity on leaving the gramophone turned on when not in use, this is but one small factor in a bigger picture that must also deal with how far from work anyone chooses to live. I am two and a half miles from my work, which means that the commute can easily be managed even in deep mid-winter on a bicycle. But I don't think that just because I put very little petrol in a sixteen year old car that makes me want to leave the gramophone on when not actually being used. 

It's an attitude to saving on what is wasteful. Most of us are living with free choice on this, and that is to be welcomed. But I don't think it would be right to keep silence when someone asks about it on a public forum. And being in minority, it is inevitable that I have to answer things addressed to me,when most people think differently.

And it is good to think these things through. There is a reason why I live in cycling distance of work. There is a reason why when my low energy light bulb fails, I'll buy an even better LED type. The incandescent was 60 Watts, the energy saver for a similar[ish] light level is 11 Watts, and the new LED is either 4 or 6 Watts, so that is a real improvement over time. The rarely used bulbs are the old style and used minimally. When they blow, I'll get the LED type to replace them.

Many choices to make and think about.

ATB from George

You pays your money and takes your choice. If it were damaging to turn off then there would not be such a fine quality switch that allows you to.

There would be a note in the manual telling you that turning off will ruin your amplifier instead!

ATB from George

Don,

It is all use of energy. The distinction is between justified use, such as consuming electricity to listen to music, and wasted use such as consuming electricity to run equipment that is not being listened to.

Your argument that energy is not wasted if it is used to power your Naim system when not in use, as it is necessary to achieve the desired effect, does not hold water. It may well be necessary to use energy like this to achieve the desired effect, but it is still wasteful. You are using a system that is wasteful of power by virtue of its need to be powered up all the time rather than just when you are listening to music. 

Your argument would be a valid one if all music systems in existence required to be left on permanently in order to function correctly. This would be analogous to never powering down a frdge/freezer. The need to leave a hi-fi system permanently switched on for it to work properly is however very much the exception rather than the rule. So if you want to claim to not be wasteful in this respect than either switch-off and put up with it or buy another system that can be switched-off without causing ill effects on the replay.

I am not preaching or trying to tell you what you should do. It is entirely up to you. But at least face the reality of it and admit that you are wasting power. You are clearly able to fully justify that waste to yourself and that's another matter entirely.

Peter

yawwwwn!!

Ooops! Sorry, i haven't got anything clever to add to this, erhmmm...

I think i will just play a tune on my now fully warned-up system -- that normally cheers me up no end!

or may be arrange for some flying lessons with our Don -- now there is a thought!

enjoy

ken

This thread is fascinating. No, wait....the other thing....tedious.

FFS I thought this was a Hifi forum.

It's keeping my eyeballs nicely warmed-up for the bed-time hifi classifieds squint-off 

I had to put my reading glasses on for that!

Squint--off rhymes with Flintoff [as in Freddie]- a great cricketer ...

ATB from George

Right, someone's mentioned school-level thermodynamics. Finally a topic I'm paid to know something about.

Wat, your memory of the first law of thermodynamics is immaculate, and one I would be happy with my GCSE pupils having. You do, however, seem to be forgetting the second law. You also seem to be confusing wasted energy with destroyed energy. Energy cannot disappear from the Universe (i.e. be destroyed), but it can be transferred to non-useful forms - thermal energy in the case of hi-fi - i.e. wasted. The second law of thermodynamics can be used to show that an efficiency of 100% is impossible*, meaning that any device will always transfer some energy to a non-useful form (i.e. waste it), whether we like it or not.

Other than that, I agree that we should now get back to listening to some music.

Mark

* For any specialists out there, yes, I know I should say 'overwhelmingly statistically improbable', but we're amongst friends here. Mostly.

"Entropy! ... Man!"

To quote Flanders and Swann ...

ATB from George