equipment switched on

The light at the end of the tunnel is usually daylight, so this is very serious indeed!

ATB from George

All this bollocks from such a simple question.

What larks.

John.

Indeed - but would you expect anything else?

I have been thinking (I know it's dangerous) about the bath tub curve referred to in a recent Simon-in-Suffolk posting. If we assume the equipment leaving the Naim factory has been tested and burnt-in such that any early life failures have been weeded out then the equipment we receive should be operating on the flat (bottom) part of the MTBF bath tube curve. Lets say it still needs another month of continuous power-up to reach optimum performance (as stated in the Owners Manual). Surely after this period the only parameter we are really interested in, with regard to achieving optimum SQ, is how long the equipment takes to reach its mean operating temperature. If we know this information, and the energy (power) being consumed, then users can make an informed choice how best to operate their equipment rather than be guided by hyperbole and emotive arguments.

For modern electronic equipment, and surely Naim equipment can't be that different, my guess is the warm-up time is probably in the region of 10-20 minutes tops. Powering-up for any longer, before use, or continuously, can surely only be justified in the desire for convenience, i.e. the equipment is immediately available when I want to use it. As I have stated previously in this thread the average power consumption of my Naim equipment is 15W which, if powered-up 24/7, represents 3% of my total electricity consumption and I make savings where I can. If I do choose to leave my equipment switched-on 24/7 then, compared to say air travel, it is going to have negligible impact on my total energy usage.

Also, the Naim Owners Manual states “better and more consistent performance will be achieved if the system is left switched on for long periods” but does this mean hours, days or what? For example, if I switch my system on in the morning and off when I go to bed I could interpret that as being a long period.

You pays your money and you takes your choose.

Logic implies a relatively swift 'warm-up', but it's not that simple.

I'm guessing that a piece of brand new Naim kit powered up for a few hours will 'measure' exactly the same as if it was measured again after being powered-up for a few months.

Most of us here accept that there is a perceivable improvement in SQ over that period, so it's a tricky one.

'RTFM' and be guided by it, works for me.

John.

And we do. I go with what my ears tell me. What with being away for a few days, storms and such like requiring power downs, it has been easy for me to get practical information on how the sound varies. I don't need anyone to tell me what I should be hearing. Other's technical, theoretical and practical experiences are as inapplicable to me as my experiences are to them. Sharing can be useful. Nothing wrong with food for thought. Riding in on the white steed of absolute wisdom with magical sword waving about is comical. Up to a point.

Just to comment on some recent posts if you believe leaving your equipment powered-up 24/7 ensures the SQ is optimised and maintained then that's your decision. But it still doesn't make it a universal truth. Let's just say it's not something I'm convinced about and you will know, if you read my last post fully, I have read the Naim manual.

...and to kind of continue from above... according to perceived wisdom from the Forum, the black boxes require a periodic power down In order to produce better SQ when next powered up. 

So, is the Forum suggesting that leaving the boxes on for long periods of time actually degrades SQ over that period And by powering down, waiting some time,  then powering up, we immediately hear an improved SQ, I.e. from a cold start.

Oh the fickle Forum, you just can't please everybody.

No ones moralising here, Its pretty standard evnironment thinking as is recycling your waste, most people don't have an issue with that (anymore), and it seems most posters do make conscious efforts to save energy. It seems to me that the issue is the attitude of a Naim owner. If a Naim owner comes over with a Golum syndrome and can't handle thinking about turning off their precious box then that's a different issue.

And I suspect the more expensive the boxes, the bigger the Golum syndrome. Remarkably similar to the size of ones manhood to the speed of ones car.

Jason.

We do make conscious efforts to avoid waste in this household Jason. But it's not an obsession. Again, it comes down to good old common sense. I remain resolutely home based and do a lot of productive business on the phone, by email and to a lesser extent by letter. Staying home based has been a struggle. I don't commute or drive for pleasure and I don't drive locally when I can walk. We are served well by a local shop and Post Office which sells a range of locally produced food which has traveled a short distance from farm to shelf. Our milk travels a total of four and a half miles from the cow to our local shelf. In these two regards we probably save more and waste less than all our other measures put together. That we buy our HiFi from a local manufacturer via a local dealer might appear frivolous but it all adds up. And if I can keep my car running for a few more years my next car will very likely require no petrol and emit zero from the tail pipe (assuming it has one). We don't take holidays. None of this - and all our other, what we consider to be, sensible measures, inconvenience us in the least. We are not hand wringing martyrs. I don't understand the need to push my agenda onto all and sundry, or brag about it as if I'm on some kind of high ground, or for that matter to be told what to do, as if I have no choice, brain or free will. 

It has been the case that occasionally powering down the 500 can restore crispness and remove a degree of fug. It is, of course highly subjective and the benefits are not day and night. I have not had occasion to do this recently. Things seem to be staying crisp and tight, although from time to time a power down is necessary for other reasons. But again, I don't advocate discharging the caps regularly. If any think that a degree of mojo has lost focus I will suggest it as a possible thing worth doing. I just don't understand why people feel they need to be told what to do.

I think Naim switched on 24/7 or otherwise is arguably the most consumer friendly electrical product available. Why? Because it endures and will last a lifetime.

So true - I think that a fractious minority might not concur though

This weekend we have dropped the boy off at Uni, probably the most traumatic thing I have ever been through. And I get back to Emsworth, and this drivel is carrying on. Do I turn off the Hifi? Who gives a ****?

Dear Osprey,

Two or three decades ago, a discussion like this - if it could have occurred at all like this - would have been a few greeny-hippy types wearing sandals and not showering quite often enough being annoying to a majority of a good nineteen twentieths!

Maybe the "green-tinge" members are not yet a majority, but give it another few years and even those who seem not to give a damn will be sitting up and taking note of the finite nature of the energy situation.

Time will tell, and strangely this has been a very good thread that shows a tremendous advance on any previous one on the subject, and for once it has not been shunted off to the Padded Cell, as a sort of lunatic fringe exchange, but one that is as relevant to the future of Naim design considerations as the future of energy saving in general, whether it be ultra-efficient fridges, fuel cell cars or whatever else comes along in time.

I have enjoyed this thread very much, even the posts that I cannot find myself in agreement with.

ATB from George

reminds me when we dropped our daughter off to unit a few years ago. i recall struggling to control my emotions -- much harder that her first day at school, for some reason !

and oh, play some good music om your warmed up system -- it should cheer you up no end.

enjoy

ken

A parochial perspective presented as absolute fact. The footprint of a product comprises of making, running and eventually disposing with it. However, there is also the somewhat tricky question of whether it is needed in the first place.

One cannot realistically claim that a rack of PSU's is better for the environment than some Sonos all-in-one speaker even if the latter is more disposable. To be self-congratulatory on this topic when most use a simplistic hi-fi or just some mini speakers plugged into a laptop let alone boast of second systems is to be quite out of touch.

Hi-fi is not the big environmental story though. Considering domestic products alone, I think over-use of gas guzzling cars to drive everywhere by the obese who then need our medical help is a far greater problem than Naim amps. What underlies that attitude are the same problems though - a sense of entitlement, voracious consumption and probably Jason's speed of car analogy too.

Thanks Ken, I've been listening to some Erased Tapes albums, which have been strangely restorative. It's amazing what music can do. The house does seem strangely empty, nonetheless.

... an interesting perspective. Which came first?

The planet is going to be just fine. Don't worry about it. It's the human race that is screwed. And IMO we deserve it. 

Driving down the M1 today, the only cars we had driving challenges with were huge 4x4s driven by morons. Whether they were obese I don't know, but somehow they seemed to demonstrate a sense of entitlement. Probably fat in the head, if not the body. Up against the wall, all of them.

Any of them Mercedes Nigel?

Generally Landrovers. Mercedes drivers tend to be more classy.