Who REALLY hates Britain?

Let's try to forget about this terrible war - like any war and be happy that the European Union has brought piece at least when we forget about the financial problems.

P.s. I am living in German, but I am Dutch - for whoever thinks my opinions are influenced....

So, Bert, if your Dad had been traduced in a national newspaper you wouldn't react? The Mail's piece, which is easy to find online, is disgusting and hypocritical in the extreme. And I speak as a journalist who loves and values robust journalism.

This is nothing to do with the War.

I didn't read this piece online - just reacted to the visuals - will watch a bit more closely when it's controversal...

It's the "daily mail", folks! lord rothermere must be proud of his legacy! We're DOOOOOOOMED! Nuff said!

I disagree. German atrocities during WW2 must never be forgotten. It would be disrespectful to all those who lost their lives during the war but more importantly it shall continue to serve as a warning to all of us and remind us of the horrific deeds humans are capable of. And I say humans on purpose. The fact that it was Germans under Hitler who committed some of the worst crimes against humanity ever at that time in history is almost irrelevant though. Going further back in time there are ample examples of similar horrors. During the slave trade it was the British that played a major role, profitting handsomely and being directly responsible for the deaths of millions of Africans. The Spanish savaged the indigenous people of South America when they "conquered" that part of the world. And a look at American history doesn't reflect well on their treatment of the native Indians. All of these events were of similar proportion and the list of examples is much longer than these. If anything, a bit more humility would stand us all in good deed. The sooner we get away from those nationalistic tendencies, dividing the world into us and them, the better for all of us. That said, the way in which the British boulevard press continues to exploit WW2 and Nazi rule for their own nationalistic interests is very unpleasant and it shows a rather immature understanding of and relationship to the real issues. All IMHO of course.

Well spoken, totemphile,

But don’t forget they were Nazi atrocities of a corrupt and criminal ideology, not every German was a Nazi, and by a long means not every Nazi was a German.

As to the Daily Smell, wasn't it called the Völkischer Beobachter during the 30s?

Debs

The thing also to remember is not so much that most Germans were not Nazis, but rather that most Germans did not disapprove soon enough of the Nazi ideology to do enough about it before it was too late.

The Second World War is a rare case of a war that was morally justified, and for a while battled by Britain alone against the rather enthusiastic foe.

ATB from George

Dear George,

I have to disagree in part, because if you only want to blame Germans for being Nazi then you’re letting off Hitler for starters, who, as i'm sure you know, was Austrian.

And not to mention the fact that Nazi’s who are not German, maybe more Nazi than Hitler, and should not be absolved of any criminal undertaking.

Also, is the facts of the historical situation, by the time the minds of many German people opened up as they saw the writing on the wall, they were pretty well in too deep [in der Scheiße stecken?] and hopelessly oppressed and terrorised by a ruthless regime who frequently enjoyed exorcising extraordinary violent means to their own people to keep themselves in power.

TBH i can feel sympathy for German people and can forgive the ones who made an honest mistake, but this don't stop me hating Nazis, regardless to what nationality they are.

Debs

I thought we're supposed to be discussing Naim and other things related to audio systems.  Surely there is a better forum for this thread...

Hi Kendrick

this is Padded Cell where all the exciting topics get discussed.

The boring people discuss boring audio issues in the boring Hifi Corner.

You know, if you want to be hip, try the Music Room, that’s where all the cool people hang out

Debs

+1

And the really, really boring people talk about mind-numbingly tedious stuff in the Streaming Audio forum.

Back to what this thread is all about.

No, I don't hate Britain, I love it, I just can't stand the way we are governed by the powers that be. IMHO there is too much corruption and baseless threats and who has to suffer? Us for F~ck sake, while the powers that be rake in the profits and become richer, that is what I hate, sadly there doesn't seem to be any difference between any of the political parties so things are not going to change for the foreseeable future. Think I will emmigrate.

Kevin

I dont hate Britain,but i do hate living in London,mainly because its to damm overcrowded. I am thinking inside the M25. Trains are packed,the underground/buses are at bursting point and our roads,well nuff said. Some parts of the UK are well overcrowded,population growth needs sorting out big time. As for Germany/their people dont have a problem.

Mista h

Sorry MM, this is just breathtakingly naive and to bring old cliches about German "orderliness" into your half-arsed speculation is lazy and crass. And bordering on offensive.

Nazi Germany was a totalitarian state. Asking why the Jews "didn't do anything?" is rather like asking why the Kulaks didn't rise against Stalin; the Cambodians against the Khmer Rouge; or the hundreds of millions of Chinese against the murderous idiocies of The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution?

Also, if you think that the Holocaust could only happen in Germany, you are both deeply complacent and ignorant of the lessons of history. The most terrifying aspect of the Holocaust is that it could have happened anywhere, and could happen again. It is a profoundly human tragedy, not one perpetrated by one-off psychopaths. It happened because it was allowed to happen. Because it was normal.

Instead of indulging in ignorant speculation, why don't you try and learn something on the subject? Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust: The Jewish Tragedy is one of the best among a large number of books on this subject.

Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on The Banality of Evil is a masterful demonstration of how even the most ordinary people - it is striking just how dull most leading Nazis were - can commit horrific crimes, given the right incentives. Or if you can't be bothered to read books, just google "Milgram experiment".

As for your musings about what would have happened had more civilians had guns in the 1940s.. well, it just beggars belief. What do you think would have happened, FFS?

Very true Debs but far too many were and as George aptly pointed out the fact that the vast majority stood by as silent bystanders and "did not disapprove soon enough of the Nazi ideology to do enough about it before it was too late" seems incomprehensible from today's point of view. But it also shows what mass indoctrination coupled with authoritarian style rule and exertion of violence and fear can lead to and the dangers that can arise when given the 'right' circumstances and environment.

My partner once said to me that she is glad not to have lived during that period because nobody can honestly say how they would have reacted during this period of Nazi rule. I vehemently opposed that view at the time but the more I thought about it the more I realised that there is a lot of truth in what she said. Taken out of historical context, i.e. with the benefit of hindsight, a completely different intellectual frame of mind and ideological conditioning, and from the comfort of our armchairs it's easy to say that we would have opposed that ideology and acted against it. But the truth is, so many factors would have influences peoples reactions, attitudes and behaviours, starting with one's family background, views of one's parents, friends and wider social circle, etc. Ultimately I have to agree with her, I am just glad not to have lived during that horrific period. 

And as Kevin pointed out the most terrifying fact is that it can happen again. In fact it did, right in front of our European doorstep during the Bosnian war. The fact that it happened on a lesser scale is irrelevant. That's why I have no sympathy whatsoever for right wing ideology and find it so dangerous when the boulevard press and even politicians from main stream parties play up anti foreign sentiments, no matter how subtle. Unfortunately it still happens way too often in just about every European country and across the world. It's an easy card to play but the longer term repercussions can easily get out of control.  

Best

tp

Dear Debs,

Just briefly, I did refer to the Nazi ideology as something worthy of disapproval. Some Germans left the country as early as 1933 as the country slipped under the Nazi totalitarianism.Some were Jews, some were Communists, and some were even small "c" conservative Germans such as Fritz and Adolph Busch for two musical examples of Germans the Nazi regime would probably have preferred to stay. It was clear to people of integrity and normal intelligence.

No doubt that in considering the Nazi ideology as odious, you may understand that I dislike people born anywhere who lead it or join in its implementation, even those who did this in a passive way by not creating too many objections to serving the regime and giving a sense of normality to daily life. For example Wilhelm Furtwangler who conducted the Berlin Philharmonic at the Nuremburg Rallies, and for the ProMi broadcasts on the Riechsender Radio, under the direct control of Goebels.

Obviously I am ashamed that the Norwegian Quisling served the German Nazi regime royally. I am half Norwegian. There were fellow travellers and virulent Nazis in all the occupied territories, and no doubt that there would have been some here in Britain had we fallen to invasion in 1940.

And now we come to the nub [of the topic of this thread],as no doubt some of the British press would have supported the control of our unruly and cynical country under the Nazi jack-boot. And there would have been a readership for it. There are people today who still read and believe in this rubbish. Fortunately still a minority.

Certain sections of the press today seem no wiser than those that supported the rise of Nazism in Germany before 1939.

But we have a free press, and within certain limitations concerning race relations, we have free speech. And those who then committed Nazi style rants than, and some who continue to do so today, do tend to be ridiculed by most British people. Long may this cynical view of Nazi style politics continue, though there can be no guarantee if we forget the lessons of history and remain informed of the broadly liberal views that still dominate British public affairs.

Sorry. That was not brief.

ATB from George

If you think you would have reacted differently to the then German populace under the Nazis, you need to Google Milgram's experiment, which was designed, in part at least, to try to find out why otherwise good and decent people stood by whilst atrocities were committed in their names.

Aside from such terribly serious talk, could we get back to bashing the appalling and unconscionable Daily Mail, which has once again shown itself to be a moral vacuum? If you've never heard the Daily Mail song, then enjoy it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eBT6OSr1TI

And for pudding, have a play with the Daily Mail Headline Generator:

http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/

Enjoy,

Mark

All that the German population had to do was vote non-Nazi in sufficient numbers in the democratic elections before the Nazi gained enough power to rig subsequent elections. The intentions of the Nazis were never hidden even from the 1920s.

In a democracy [which Germany was before the Nazi Era] it is everyone's responsibility in elections to vote for politicians with genuine democratic credentials.

If the populace is too stupid to get it right, then it will get the government it deserves to be honest.

In this country it would be an idea to avoid giving too much support for the far right - BNP or whatever name they use nowadays for example - and then at least we can vote out the government at the next election!

ATB from George

I think the peice was more about that milliband snr did not like british values and what briian stood for.Also ed Milliband brought his father into his political arena so can only expect newspapers etc to look furhter into it as Ed describes his father as his greatest politcal influence. Personaly I don't want to live under a marxist type of governement, so I believe the people of the uk have a right to know where ed milliband is coming from.

As for Alistair Campbell juming on the bandwagon, he's hardly  a moral compass himself.

As for the daily Mail, remember it has probably the highest readship of any of the daily papers in the uk, so it is doing something right.

Also the left were very quick to dance on Margaret Thatchers grave back in March. The left are very good at shouting people down, but are not very good at taking it when they are the ones being shouted at.

Ed Milliband needs to man up a bit too.

Clearly a Grauniad reader.

Some dare...

George,

During the 1920s the Nazis gave no intention of wanting to railroad millions of people away to be mass murdered.

The German population of the 1920s did not have the benefit of hindsight, and even in 1933 during the last democratic elections [in which the Nazis failed to obtain the absolute majority with just under 44% of the vote] comparatively very few had any real inkling to knowing how nasty things would turn out to be. It is fair to say most Germans voted for someone other than the Nazi Party, and any others who didn’t vote probably didn’t feel duty bound care for Nazism either. Hitler made himself Dictator by passing of an enabling act while he was Chancellor, the rest as they say is history: most Germans were not Nazis but were ruthlessly oppressed and fed copious amounts of Propaganda - in an age before the advantage of the internet, colour televisions, and facebook, it’s sad and horrific but understandable how events took there course.

Also, Spain and Italy were fascist dictatorships in the 1930s and war years, so it’s not just about ‘The Germans‘, it was and is far more complicated than that.

Debs

And let's put in perspective. It wasn't just the Germans who were going around beating up the Jews and other 'anti-socials'. Many European nations were doing the same. The Poles took great delight in persecution I believe. So it hardly seems fair to lay in to the Germans. Or the Austrians. Or the Slavs. Or the Greeks. Pretty much every Baltic state. Soviets of many hues. Romanians. Hungarians. Bless 'em. I'm sure they all loved their mothers and maybe some simply thought "Weeeelll everyone else is joining in so..."

Well, cool by the standards of a specialist high-end hi-fi forum at least.