Do you play a musical instrument?

Concerning musicians, singers, solo instrumentalists, even some members of orchestras ... Yes some of them have an annoying way of moving about when playing that at a concert is one very fine reason for not sitting near the front row, but rather further back, where the balance of musical lines is better in any case.

For one I have never enjoyed the distraction of a conductor who feels compelled to dance a whole ballet while leading  great music. I prefer the stock-still [at least as viewed from behind] approach of say a musician like Sir Adrian Boult, who held the view that the more the conductor dances about, the less his baton and left hand retain their mesmerising power. 

One of the stillest conductors was Otto Klemperer, and yet he got performances of extra-ordinary power and where appropriate excitement from orchestras.

The great  Russian-born Pianist Mosievitch used to play with a completely immobile face and no superfluous movement, and was one of the great unsung players. Unsung on the popular level as he was so un-flambouyant in appearance. Yet he drew the attention of Rachmaninov, who admitted to wishing he could play as well! 

In my own old style [no doubt] lessons on the bass, I was taught to sit stock still and let the power out through bow into the instrument and not dilute the effort with swaying about, which invariably must diminish the actual power of the performance. 

One of the advantages of records is that the listener is not confronted by the appearance [pleasant or not] of the artists concerned!

ATB from George

+1 BigH. My nomination for classical keyboard equivalent would be Ivo Pogorelich. I picked up his version of Chopin's Preludes on DG, and it's the only CD I've bought where I had to replace it with another interpretation it was so bad. He was mucking about with the tempo to a preposterous attention-seeking extent and breathing so noisily through his nose at the big emotional moments it sounded like he was scrubbing his back with a loofah. Ridiculous egotist.

I've heard a few muso friends refer to Lang Lang as Bang Bang, so you could perhaps add him to the list.

Mark

I keep telling myself that the wise thing to do is to never reply to anything after I've had a lousy day and this will be no different tomorrow and the day after that and....

1]  Oh, so you like to look at your food, maybe smell it but never actually put it in your mouth and eat it?  Maybe you have read a book about physical fitness and feel this is equal to actually sweating a little and really doing the workout.  Could looking at a photo or just imagining your partner ever be the same as really touching them, smelling them etc.?

A greater pleasure always results from actually physically doing something rather than passively watching someone (or listening to someone) else.  Not that there might not be some pleasure for some with the latter but I can't imagine when comparing the two activities that anyone would want to forego actually doing "the activity" to not doing an activity they enjoy.

In the type of music I am interested in I would say that the most interested people attending a concert or seriously listening are those that actually do this activity at some level themselves and part of there joy or reason for being there is they are imagining themselves vicariously to actually be up on stage or in the studio do the playing / performing.   The vast majority of the others shouldn't be there anyway.  They have no idea why they are there in the first place.

I see this all the time at classical music concerts and these out of place people are easy to spot.  Some time ago I went to a concert to see Rafal Blechacz and happen to have sat behind the Mayor of my city.  He was only there I suspect because of his wife maybe and also it is good politics to rub shoulders and be seen among different circles.  The entire concert he scratched notes in his notebook probably outlining his thoughts and schedule for the next days.  I'd estimate about half the attendees of most concerts fall into this category of people who have no idea what they are at.  They don't know the music and they don't really care.

The point of musicians (mostly amateurs) only watching musicians (in the music I like) is probably not far off the mark.  I would also include anyone who at one point in their lives actually did play or participate in music making.  They are there because they at least are connected to the music.  The other half are not connected in any way and are just putting in time and rightly shouldn't be there.

2]  I'm not sure why this is a surprise to you?  If you are not a physicist or have no interest in physics in the first place then you have no business reading these books nor should you feel slighted for not be able to understand them.   Otherwise, it just sounds like you believe in entitlement for entitlement's sake. 

Interesting. There has been a fair number of aggressive statements made on the forum tonight, many of which have been moderated into oblivion. I wonder if there is any connection to the release of the new Naim Statement. Seems to have folks on edge. And this seems like such a benign topic.

I'll take the latter. Depending on my pre-concert meal, I might at least be able to play an encore tune on the trumpet on my way out 

Whilst the cat's away, eh? A certain sense of surrealism seems to be enveloping this thread. Thank goodness for Florestan's sensible contributions.

People were also more social.  Musical evenings in the home after a meal were also commonplace activities.

I think this is a particularly valid point. Everyday experiences of live music are, today, the preserve of the few. With the advent of recorded sound, live music, somewhat ironically, became eroded as it was no longer necessary to produce live sound in order to hear music performed. In one sense this goes back to one of my original connections. Is there a connection between people who appreciate good quality sound reproduction and those who make music, in the live sense?

Like Bruce, I think we all accept that live and reproduced music are different entities, the question is whether the experience of one enhances the pleasure derived from listening to the other? And, yes, I would accept that connection in either direction. Indeed it is hard to ignore the perfection with which the recorded medium can beguile us, and the ends to which we will go to maximise the purity of that experience. 

Char is wrong to suggest that the thread postulated that 'owning a Naim system' was the correalitve to  'being unwilling to play a musical instrument'. I apologise if I was unclear. I simply wanted to see if there was a correlative between playing an instrument and listening to superb HiFi of the Naim variety. Given that the great JV was trying to replicate the live experience with his amps, it seemed to me that there very well might be a link. Thus far, however, if this thread is anything to go by, the evidence is hardly conclusive.

I'm not sure I can agree with George that replay can never 'create a sense of a love and complete performance'. That has to be dependent on the competency of the recording engineers. Clapton unplugged is a case in point: totally captivating live sound even on my humble system. But we are not confusing the two , Char, we are simply saying that the connection between the two is palpable and that it is possible to recreate something analagous to the original. Is it so strange, George, that some of us persist in this aim? Isn't that what underpins Naim from the outset to the Statement?

I concur with Simon: 'playing an instrument does tend to encourage you to listen and appreciate music in a certain way.' And my professional musician friends would seem to back up this idea. A professional pianist told me on Monday that a musical training was 'essential' to developing a full and in-depth understanding of the music, whether read, heard (live or in cryostasis)  or performed. Dr Mark emphasises the same point 'I feel it expands my appreciation and enjoyment."After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley'

Of course we all have different tastes which is why Char sensibly won't be drawn on which music he dislikes, but the music which does or does not appeal to us is not really relevant here (unless some find live or reproduced music anathema to their way of life). 

Interesting point abou cheap guitars. My ex session guitarist friend (much of the Scorpions' solos are his) can make a £50 beat up Westone Thunder 1 Active guitar sound better than my Washburn Tonewood any day, because he possesses skill which I will never have. But this too is irrelevant. He listens to music on very Lo-Fi equipment, and only lives for the rare live, active moment when he can emulate any of the greats: eat your heart out Eddie Van Halen.

So let's get away from the performing poseurs, and back to the question in hand: are Musicians or those who regularly listen to or perform live music more or less likely to be interested in Naim equipment (whether or not they can afford it)? Is the calibre of the equipment we all love, sufficient to forge a link?

Another great quote I ran across that would apply to some musicians:

"Don't be so humble...you're not that great." - Golda Meir

Simulacra and Simulation (1981) is hardly 21st century, even if it did have a camio appearance in the Matrix. Whicever reality you're inhabiting is your own affair.

 If the fantasy is no longer unreal how would I distinguish between the real you and your hallucinatory semblance of yourself? If music exists in both spheres and is indistiguishable from its selves, then who is to contradistiguish between the two?

Tomorrow [Saturday, 11, 1, 2014] I am going to pay a visit to my my 90 year old second [of three] double bass teacher, so as to play his marvellous circa 1800 London-made bass to him. It is two years since he last played it, so it will be an emotional and nostalgic moment for both of us. I shall take the music of JS Bach's Second Violin Concerto in E Major [bass part] and play through the slow movement, where the bass line makes perfect musical sense even on its own.

Life is full of such fine moments if you search for them!

ATB from George 

Marvellous, George. A more personal recital is hard to imagine. Let us know how it goes.

Personally, I think the brand aspect is secondary (although still important) to the issue although the choices we make do tell us and others about something intrinsic within or identifiable about our character somehow.

I say this since, for myself, it was an interest in music that came first.  At the beginning and too young to have been influenced by the marketers of the world, an instrument and replay equipment were merely tools used to meet the ends.  But as one gets older and wiser and possibly has the means to make some changes you make choices that help improve your tools to increase the pleasure you receive in return.

On the second point, I personally think the calibre of Naim (or any quality product) is sufficient to form a link but this is not automatic just because you can afford the price of admission.   I believe desire and familiarity with your music are the two key components that lead to a fulfilling marriage here whether you only listen, only play an instrument, or do both.  However, in my own experience, if you are devoted to playing an instrument it almost guarantees your investment in time grows your desire and familiarity with music of any kind based on your own interests.

Again, in my opinion, the playing aspect of this question drives my love of music which in turn further drives my listening requirements.  The loop continues as eventually one desires a better instrument (priority) and consequently better replay (secondary but strongly correlated).  If I didn't play, obviously my only priority would be in a higher caliber replay equipment.  Once one gets above the poor quality brands into mid-range or even high-end the need to look over the fence is greatly reduced, if not non-existant anymore, as your satisfaction allows you to focus back on your first love, that being the music.  At least that is how it went for me.

For George....

And NOT a musical instrument but one of pleasure none the less....

Joff

Dear Loki,

Now you see a first quality double bass being played in an "ad hoc" way without stool or music stand.

It was a great moment, and pleased my old friend immensely!

ATB from George

PS: The last picture show that my friend Joff is also a good cyclist ,,, the first cycle is my ancient Carlton ... About Christmas-time ...

Dear Loiki,

When you know someone very well you can play without nerves. It was a great event. Next we go to a concert on the 30th of January. The number of shared moment are surely limited now.

ATB from George

But as one gets older and wiser and possibly has the means to make some changes you make choices that help improve your tools to increase the pleasure you receive in return

How true Florestan. My own acquisition of Naim gear was because it just got to the heart of the music so much better than the competition.

Again, in my opinion, the playing aspect of this question drives my love of music which in turn further drives my listening requirements.  The loop continues as eventually one desires a better instrument (priority) and consequently better replay (secondary but strongly correlated).... as your satisfaction allows you to focus back on your first love, that being the music. 

Agreed. I feel the tug of the upgrade bug lessens as my system improves. But what qualities of the equipment particularly draw you Naim-wards? Did JV get it right?

Nice one Joff! Thank you so much for sharing. Lovely Double Bass. I appreciate the Carlton too. I use a 25 year old Dawes CrMo road training bike for light track work: much faster and more responsive than MTBs! Maybe I should start another thread about connections between cyclists and Naim ownership?!

Intriguing point about nerves, George! I find the opposite. I'm at my most nervous when my wife is listening! I hope that doesn't mean I don't know her very well. I shall have to listen to JSB's 2nd when I get home on Tues and try to follow the bass. Your friend is very lucky indeed. Terrific.

Dear Loki,

Joff posted the photos for me! I am the bald fool with the great bass!

As I have no idea with computers except employing them for music!

The Carlton is my ancient cycle. The posh ones are Joff's family machines!

We went for a good ride out just after Christmas!

We do have some music enthusiasts in the West Midlands, even if we are Provincial!

I don't know about anyone else, but if you know a person well, it is not about impressing them, but rather sharing. I did concerts well, but played abysmally in the situation of playing for an individual such as an audition. I had to be friends with my teachers, or else I could not have played a single note nicely.

ATB from George

A very, very interesting thread this, It seems to me that there is, quite clearly a correlation between good sound quality and musicianship, for the simple reason that there are so many folk on this particular forum that play instruments. But that does not mean that those who don't play enjoy their music any less. As a budding guitarist (in my early forties now) I just wanted to play rock guitar and I didn't really care how it sounded as long as it was loud and distorted, but fashions change and we get older.         

 Guitarists who were amazed by Hendrix in the sixties and equally dazzled by Van Halen in the seventies (and tried to emulate their styles) are probably listening to the jazz/blues styles of Larry Carlton or Robben Ford or closer to home for me Martin Taylor at the moment.

But these may seem over indulgent for some, Its like when a gigging guitarist friend of mine was told to listen to some satriani he commented after, " A million notes, but I cant remember one of them". 

So I can see both sides to Kevin w and Big H,s arguments.

Naim ownership has indeed opened my horizons a little and I am listening to more classical music, But as Big H says artists in all fields are capable of showing off a bit. that,s the point isn't it.

Most artists that are capable of epically emotive unpretentious pieces have a little bit of showing off in their repertoire. 

Bach,s cello suite for example; as lovely as it is, could come across as a scales exercise.

But I digress,

For me personally,(Going back to loki,s original question) the difference between playing a distorted A chord (for example)  and a now preferred smooth G13 chord is huge and can sound so different between different artists, this is where good SQ comes in, helping pick out and appreciate the finer nuances.

For an Electronic music fan it would probably be the superb spacial effects  from one speaker to another, Etc.          Jim

Sorry Char Wallah, Dont take me the wrong way, i'm as fick as thuck, After all take a look at the bad grammar and non existent paragraphs,    or am i so daft that i've got the wrong end of the stick,  either way, i'm just trying to put my very humble opinion across.  Jim

this is where good SQ comes in, helping pick out and appreciate the finer nuances.

For an Electronic music fan it would probably be the superb spacial effects  from one speaker to another,

Exactly Jimmy. Although I'd say the same for electronic too. Once you'e witnessed a synth played up close, you are forever chasing that deep, complex sound: trying to replicate the different levels of harmonics. I once had custody of a Yamaha DX7 in the eighties whilst a mate of mine went abroad for a term. Great fun, but only in recent years have I had good enough sound reproduction equipment to replicate the experience: to realise the purity of the pitch and tone.

Yes I think there are so many variables, not just in the way a musician uses his/her hands, feet, mouth, etc, but the set up  and type of instrument. Stevie Ray Vaughan(rip),for example, as a guitarist used heavy gauge strings to give an unmistakable tone, Or a drummer like Neil peart might overtighten his skins to give his own preferred sound.

And as you say there are big sonic differences in synthesized sounds, Modern synths like the dx7 are getting better at mimicking other keys such as the Rhodes or the Wurlitzer. And I think since I've bought my naim kit  I am appreciating  the great sounds of other instruments more.

I bought a copy of the Stan Getz / Gilberto album,  (After the rebellious years, we always go back to our parents music , probably for nostalgia more than anything else). and I am hearing reeds slapping together in a way that just didn't come across on my dads old Blaupunkt cabinet gramophone.

Jim  

to bring in an instrument in the process of choosing between Naim equipment is superfluous, 

How could anyone disagree, dear Char. It might colour the listening experience, resonating all over the place.

But, of course, that's not what we're debating. If You prefer listening to electronics and their differences rather than listening to music, that's your audio affair .