Do you play a musical instrument?

Thanks Tony,

I don't see much of that particular friend anymore,  wonder why?  Hope he's not on here.

Char

I have to agree with you, but I find "tortured genius" a little strong, "disgruntled" certainly, especially with the "suits" that had hampered his early career, the record companies,  the government and the general publics cattle-like acceptance of the gentle coercion that had been going on behind the scenes.

And "Jesus thinks you're a jerk" as a personal critique;

Not if you look at it from an american perspective. Anyone that is self absorbed or dare I say it "paranoid" enough to believe that they are themselves the target of Zappa's irony has completely missed the point.

The US is,in the majority, deeply religious, and I mean hellfire and brimstone religious. Nothing inherently wrong with that apart from the fact that they can be quite easily led.

And language of the sort used on the song, between friends would be considered lighthearted but in the public domain quite shocking.

Lighthearted and shocking,  hmmm, could be just the wake up call Zappa intended.

You confuse me a little Char Wallah, on the one hand you say you like Zappa, and yet find his particular blend of comedy,coarse and stinging, or is it that truthfully his nonconformist eccentricities are in fact at odds with your own personal ideology, and on a religious, moral or ethical level you wish to project your own post modern antidisestablishmentarianism.

Or is it that you don't like fart jokes,

Either way , I have enjoyed the debate, thank you. 

Zappa certainly didn't mind trumpeting noises in his music, and perhaps, just perhaps we are over analysing this, it could ALL just be comedy for comedy's sake.

Anyway I thought analysis was just the preserve of CYRUS owners.

Regards Jim.

Ho ho, I will indeed Char,

No,I think I understand your angle on this, In Zappas eyes we are ALL guilty, and His music was the conduit for his deep seated hatred for the status quo. And the essentially flawed biological entity that is human life.

I feel a whole lot better , now that I know.        Thanks again,   Jim.

P.S.   Who gives a f#ck anyway,  (cue; Watermelon in Easter hay).

Loki,

your thread seems to have morphed into the FZ Analysis 101 forum. To return to the main topic, yes I play bass and have done since Uni. I have 3 guitars, MM Stingray, Fender Jazz and a vintage Ricky 4001. I always noticed bass as a young 'un but it made sense once I "borrowed" my mates Jazz copy and began to play. The bass gets your feet tapping. That's my attraction to the instrument.

Trying to learn songs in the late 70's from records was fun. It's still fun now to play along to songs from back in the day. Better still to be able to access the "notes" online and not spend ages transcribing yourself and even now having lessons online. Sure speeds up the process which was great when I needed to get down a handful of new songs quickly last month for an impromptu gig.

So how does the playing and listening crossover work for me. Well the R as in PRAT is a clue. Also, knowing what instruments actually sound like played by musicians provides my Naim satisfaction. The Naim sound is enjoyable as it is clear and honest reproduction. The listening enjoyment is from hearing the right sounds in the right place - at the right time. I can of course sit back and dissect the bass line (better on headphones) but as the output is "real" - I just enjoy the music. Would I listen or appreciate differently not being a player? Dunno.

Dave

I just enjoy the music. Would I listen or appreciate differently not being a player? Dunno.

Cheers Bodger for re-focusing the thread! That's a key part of the issue. How does one make an objective comment (assuming objectivity is at all possible) without un-learning one's positionality? Nevertheless, you do acknowledge a link between your musicianship and appreciation of PRAT relaying electronics from the stable of NAIM. 

The mechanisition of art

Well Char(m), which came first? I suspect that for many the 'mechanised' form begat an interest in the live form, begat an interest in better mechanised replay...

...except you'd hanker after all the stuff you couldn't play on your single chosen instrument; all those virtuosic performances captured for posterity and collected over many years of dedicated scavenging; and would rue the day you powered down/ sold your green back-lit beauties!

Essential, dear Char, all part of externalising the hidden depths of the emotional connection with the emergent music and the evocation of the muse. If you've ever played air guitar you'll know what I mean.

Umm? As non sequiturs go, that's not one I expected or wish to explore further. Soz.

It's a Zappa reference...

Now then, back to the thread...

Just had an interesting discussion with and listen to two modern composer acquaintances of mine. Both combine modern electro-computer dance music with live acoustic and electric instruments. Both hold SQ of replay equipment in extremely high regard, whether studio monitoring headphones / speakers or PA equipment. They would both be baffled by the thought that the one is not inextricably linked to the other. Of course SQ is important, how else do you reproduce the kick-ass bass required at the 'drop'? have you ever tried listneing to Daft Punk's last offering on a car stereo? Even my Dynaudio kit fails to provide the quality required to do the music justice.

Char: Not sure about your preoccupation with video.  We're talking modern composers of modern music: they are equipment bound by the 'instruments' they use to make the music. From artistry, production, and post production  through to club and recreational noise generation they recognise the need for the best, even if they can' afford it. They'd bite my hand off if I offered them a Naim system. As it is they make do with Dynaudio, Sennheiser, Allen and Heath, Tannoy, MC2, Rega and Linn

Surely if your concern is making music, you won't be paying much attention to reproduction 

That assumption, dear Char, is where you are wrong. I go to work with 600 musicians and composers every day. I haven't met one yet who would agree that reproduction is unimportant. After all, for many people that's the only way that they will hear the music, and the musicians I know are keen to give them the best experience they can, whether live or recorded.

Well we know that they are not mutually exclusive. If they were then no musician would own or be interested in listening to a high quality system. Selectively exclusive, perhaps? By choice or by ignorance or due to finance.

And we would agree that the link is not necessary, it would have to be contingent on the fact that the musician valued Naim-quality reproduction. And that is the quest, to see if that link exists.

The two musos I was talking to the other day are, I'm afraid, extremely keen on finding the best quality from source to repro..

Still missing the point oh brewer of composted leaves. The quest is to determine whether there is a correlation between Naim ownership ( or the want thereof) and musicianship. Your position is clearly asserted. There is no assumption, in my thesis, about the possession (or no) of 'critical faculties' by musicians. Indeed the question is whether those who play musical instruments a) have said ability and b) know it. Finance is not the only variable here, witness the burgeoning second hand market in so called 'straitened times'.

Musicianship plays a tenuous role in owning even relatively modest hifi equipment. Just because you are good at playing an instrument does not mean you are very likely to have a great interest in listening to records.

ATB from George

I'd have thought the equipment musicians care most about would be professional gear which is part of the tools of their trade.  So for example guitarists care about guitars, guitar amps, and fuzz boxes etc.  Generally they care about studio/recording gear, because this shapes the final sound they produce - assuming they want to capture that at all, and not simply play live. 

But hi-fi ?  Most musicians I've met don't have the time of day to sit down and listen in that way, and prefer other pass times.

Could it be that the non muso naim owners feel more like a musician just by having access to good quality sound?

Promise not to mention Zappa again.

But in response to the point made earlier regarding replay,

Say, I am a musician that is fortunate enough and proud to have one of his/her performances recorded for posterity, I would then like it replayed to my peers on a sub £10 mp3 amplification device preferably inside a cardboard box! I mean, come on,get real.

Of course replay quality matters to the musician, the only limiting factor as postulated earlier is the price.

Regards Jim

I guess that's why you're not a musician then Char . You don't seem to have much faith in the people who make the music you listen to, which is a shame since the likes of Jimmy and I are doing our best to witness to the fact that we know lots of musicians who do care, avidly, about high quality sound reproduction. Sure, there are some charlatans out there, and sure there are unscrupulous music industry grinders, but that's not the whole story in either the classical or non-classical worlds.

Most musicians who earn their living from playing and teaching are not well remunerated. What spare money they do occasionally have tends to go on improving their instruments, or keeping a reliable car to get to concerts/gigs.

Of course there is much smaller group of musicians who are very wealthy, and probably have enough money to afford very fine replay at home. And no doubt that some do.

Even so, listening to records for a busy proffesional musician is rather a busman's holiday type of activity, though it may surprise some people that they are in many cases people who attend concerts of their colleagues from time to time.

There is a funny interview with Otto Klemperer, where he is asked if he went to concerts by his colleagues, and he replied that he did. The interviewer then asked him if he sometimes left before the end. Klemperer replied,

"Of course I leave if the performance is not good!"

ATB from George

flaneur?

Take a walk on the wild side, leave PG Tips to the undiscerning urbanites.

"Oh Punky!"

I simply MUST read more!

Having said that, with respect to all, to re-use an analogy mentioned a few pages earlier regarding guitarists playing to impress guitarists whereby all the musicality is lost,(I'd have to agree, although I think bonamassa was mentioned in the same sentence as fretw@nkers, that, I personally do not concur, yngwie malmsteen maybe but then perhaps I am biased.) I can only say that Wordsmiths writing to impress other Wordsmiths can come across a little pompous and lacking in feeling to someone who uses their heart,(not to mention their finger dexterity and hand to eye coordination)and maybe even missing the real essence to the matter at hand.

Perhaps its an intelligence thing.

Mind you, try reading jazz guitar tablature and chord progressions, its almost like advanced mathematics.

Regards Jim

But to reiterate the main topic,

If you like music, you like music man, simple as that. Musician or not,

 As char said earlier, the mainstream audio equipment, car stereos (they say that the ones in Bentleys are good), I pods,etc, are getting better all the time and are likely to be used by musicians on the way to a gig, to the gym, walking to the shops, washing the car, I don't think we need to be so divisive.

I think there are those who may have a stereotypical view of the down and out musician on the breadline, that may be broadly incorrect. 

Although there could be quite a number that have to supplement their lifestyle with a very ordinary daytime job. 

Regards Jim

No Char sorry, I'm not a football kind of guy, and "competiveness" I don't think I want any of that either!