NDS upgrading 2014

Thanks for all the input, it does help. I have emailed my local dealer and we are going to test the US with both the dac/555ps and NDS/555ps, as a home demo.

As mentioned, best to test and draw my own conlusions, but it is always better to have the thoughts of those already haven trodden both paths.

Reference DAC sounds like the next step for 2014/15, wonder if it is in the pipeline?

Thanks all,

Best

Dan43

I thought, if you add an external PSU to the HDX, it feeds only the analogue components. The internal PSU is still used to feed the digital components.

So if you use only the digital out of the HDX, the expensive external PSU should change nothing at all... and therefore is better used on the DAC or the streamer.

Correct - this was not contradicted above.

G

^what he said. Absolutely correct. Which is why those who hook up the DAC to the HDX will put a power supply (if desired) on the DAC. Some people advocate running a PS on both. I never felt motivated to find out.

Hi Dan,

Sounds like a good plan. It will be intersting to hear your conclusions.

However, I think it's best to plan your upgrade path around products you know exist rather than those that don't and never will, for all we know. Also, the NDS has digital inputs so is a reference DAC, unless you more digital products than there are iinputs. That said, the UnitiServe should be connected via UPNP for best results.

Keith

That's a good point. At least for the present! Not of interest for someone looking for a stand alone DAC but NDS purchasers will get the top DAC as part of the package.

I'm not all that convinced by stand alone or outboard DACs. Too many variables. The flip side being that you can tune a DAC in a number of ways whereas you get what you get with an NDS and you either take it as is or don't. A higher than now level DAC will be interesting to me because a streamer that incorporates it is likely to follow.

TMOAD will at some point end up as TDOTMOAD and in time, TGDOTMOAD. The next step is never the last.

Haha. You were not the first and I doubt you'll be the last.

It's not a unique Naim trait but boy have some of us suffered. And it's always far too loud for me. 

You can't beat a home try out.

Thanks Wat,

Good points all.

I am just looking for more oomph and a tighter more solid/punchy bass response/delivery, without going in ever decreasing circles perhaps the NAP100 needs an upgrade and the speakers?

Agree though I will be testing all options with my local dealer who is going to help me get what is best for me and try the sensible options.

Thanks

Dan43

I would want more digital inputs also (for TV, Blu-Ray, Apple TV) I use the Apple TV in and can play iTunes/Podcasts/audio books (if I am in that mood) through the system plus BT Sport from WiFi and other internet options that aren't directly available in other ways.

The DAC-V1 is the hub at the moment for all the other inputs I like using.

Dan43

Dan, with your planned comparison you're also comparing the uServe's direct digital outputs vs. its use as a UPnP streamer.  Unless you use the digital out to the digital input of the NDS, which is unlikely (I am guessing) how you'd be using it at home.  What all of this means to me is that you'll just listen and compare and buy whatever sounds best and is in your budget in the rest of your system in your home. 

You can forget the "which is better - NDS or Naim Dac" nonsense

Do you have a preference for in-home streaming over ethernet vs. something with a direct connection sitting on your hi fi rack?  That could tip the scales, and they ultimately did for me.  But they are not mutually exclusive as even a uServe sitting on your hi fi rack and directly connected to a dac can also reside on a home ethernet network and serve files.  In other words, the uServe can be used both as a player directly connected to a dac, and as a server on your home network (serving another player in another room).

Hi Bart,

UnitiServe is SSD  version as I wanted a full UPnP set up, so yes everything is served through ethernet directly to the US. 

V1 is co-ax from the US.

All music from/for NAIM is UPnP, everything else (Apple TV, iPhone, Satellite, BluRay) is digital I/O via SPDIF on the V1 to NAP100 to PMCs.

My storage is RAID 05 protected and has 400+ CDs as WAV rips via US and 50+ hires rips and purchases.

I am very happy with UPnP, the US/Storage and N-Serve software on the iPad. 

It does appear some kit to test at home some more, I might find what I have IS actually all I need, just looking for that extra punch and breadth.

Also NAIM could up the release of kit this year and holding on for a few months wouldn't hurt, but we are in the today, as always.

Lots of testing times ahead, which is good to keep my knowledge continually on an upward curve.

Thanks,

Dan43

A few years ago, I guess it was with the NDX then, I compared different connections of server and streamer at a demo. I clearly preferred a direct digital connection to the streamer against the network connection over UPnP.

When the server and streamer sits in the same rack with the "big" stereo, this would be no doubt a direct digital connection to me. I would use UPnP only when necessary for longer distances to other rooms with "smaller" streaming-clients (eg. Uniti range) as extensions to the main stereo.

Running the storage from NAS, you at least require the ethernet connection to the UnitiServe for it to store and then serve the music from that network set up.

The US then connects via co-ax, the way I have it, to the V1/NAP.

So NAS storing all the WAVs via ethernet to the UnitiServe. US then sends the music via co-ax directly to the V1/NAP via V1 co-ax input.

What would this technically be called then as it is both a direct digital co-ax connect and ethernet from the NAS.

In my mind that is both UPnP and a direct connection, where have I got my muddled thinking wrong here?

Thanks

Dan43

Dan no not quite right.  You do have a network connection from the uServe to the nas, but that is a simple home network connection -- not UPnP.  UPnP is a protocol for, among other things, connecting a server to a music player.  It requires UPnP server software to be running on the file server.  In your set up you are not using that.  You're not using it on the nas, and you've established a direct connection from a digital output of the player to your dac.

With the SSD versions of the Naim servers, of course you need a network connection for the external NAS music share. But as Bart has explained, this is not UPnP protocol, but SMB (Win) protocol.

Unfortunately the Naim servers can't do AFP (Apple) or NFS (Unix). (Even though Apple has changed default to SMB2  with OS X 10.9 Mavericks.)

With the HDD versions of the Naim servers, the network connection is only needed for internet radio or looking up metadata. The music storage is internal.

But I was only talking about the connection between music server and music streamer.

UPnP devices are "plug-and-play" in that when connected to a network they automatically establish working configurations with other devices, which makes sense now as the NAS for the UPnP protocols need to be seen by the other parties.

Ironically this is what I set up with Twonky before I got the UnitiServe, so really the US is running NAIMs own proprietary form of UPnP in a way for its own devices to find each other, as the US rips the CDs to the NAS on the Music Store it creates.

As I have that direct digital connection then this is what I would have wanted to feed the V1 direct from the source of the stored media (NAS via US)

Still debating the need for upgrading to a larger amp from NAP100 or try some new speakers. Also you can switch the V1 pre-amp to fixed so you can downstream a dedicated pre-amp into the system if so desired.

Cheers

Dan43

I feel like the voice of facts here  

It's not a proprietary form of UPnP server so far as I've ever heard; and the ripping part of the uServe's function is not relying on UPnP.  As mentioned above, the connection between a uServe and its external storage is a straightforward home network connection.

What allows a Naim player to see the uServe as a UPnP server is the industry standard UPnP protocol.  My Samsung TV finds my uServe as fast as my NDS finds it -- instantly.

What IS unique is the way the Naim servers maintain a database of metadata for wav rips.  It stores the metadata in a little .xml file in each album's folder.  The flac rips are tagged traditionally, however. 

Not at all, it is good to really fully understand how it all works. The uServe creates a music store on the NAS for the rips to be sent/stored, which are then sent back to be played.

This all happens in milliseconds, the network sees the uServe and the folders on the NAS (MQ, HQ and LQ) so I can also pull the MP3s into iTunes on my Mac Pro Tower, which acts as a back-up for all the WAVs and hires music I have on the NAS.

The NAS it seems can be directly attached to the US also, via Cat5, so I don't think you need the home network, and that makes it an isolated playback system. But the network helps me navigate to other areas of the home I need to access, like upstairs.

I guess then the UPnP is a handshake protocol and a  'see me, I see you and I will instantly send to you' delivery system, the US is in some regards its own isolated unique system which, if you require, can be on your network.

Hopefully thats correct :-)

Dan43

Are you sure about that? Please can you do that and report back? It would be appreciated.

The serve needs to be networked in order to get the metadata, album covers and the like when it rips. While you can connect it to a DAC via a direct link, you usually connect it to the network To play music. Normally you'd run a cable from the router to a switch, and then connect the Serve, the NAS and the streamer to the switch.

Yes of course for the metadata you need to be networked and online, doh!

If you do that and then direct connect it does all work, but then when you rip a new CD you need the album artwork and metadata which lives online of course, so not really worth it and gained no real benefit it only isolated the system thats all.

I have everything networked, as Hungryhalibut described, so permanently online through cat5 to a hub, that is connected to the US and others.

Dan43

This is a thread about upgrading to the NDS. Are you proposing to buy an NDS and connect it to the UnitiServe via S/PDIF digital cable? That would be a waste of the streamer and wouldn't sound as good as good as UPNP streaming. It would also be cheaper to use ethernet cable than digital cable, although I guess you already own the latter.

Keith

Got a bit sidetracked. When I tested the NDS at home I relied on USB for the hires files.

For the US and DAC-V1 it is the co-ax option.

NDS would be the streaming option via the hub/UPnP, which I assume the NDS would pick up from the US created stored files on the NAS/Music Store.