Ethernet Cables

But do not accept his explanation why ethernet cables can affect sound quality on connected devices?

Good summary Simon. What don't you accept Aleg ?

What he says makes sense to me, and is not not far from what I said about get the right working cable & there is no further gain to be made. Thus, my "either works or it doesn't" statement is off. But what Simon said also does not support the idea of an "audiophile" ethernet cable. We are in the same camp in the sense that what you need is a good quality standard ethernet cable that has the right level of bandwidth support, noise rejection, low xtalk and connector quality. You can find all that easily at reasonable price in standard builds, without paying exorbitant amounts for snake-oil "audiophile"-branded ethernet cables.

OTOH: claiming that CD transports have jitter is analogous to ethernet cables affecting sound makes no sense, has no basis in fact, and is comparing apples and oranges.

I accept what Simon says. I do not accept any single argument I have heard for audiophile-grade ethernet cables.

Audioquest's marketing is just preposterous. If they cut the BS out, and simply said what it really does, I'd be more likely to pay them the asking price.

Problem is, they may not KNOW what it does. Stradivarius had no idea why a given type of wood bent just so produced a better sound... He just knew it did. And his customers paid for it. And now they pay... more

And in a recent blind test those same owners could not tell the difference between their 7m instruments and 'standard' ones.

I have an AQ Cinnamon due to arrive any day now. So if there is an appetite for anecdote, I can post my thoughts once I've hooked it up...

It should be nice and easy to blind test with a mate. Lets introduce a little science?

Personally, I think blind tests are only valid for listening to audio if the subject doesn't know they are participating in the test. I never listen to gear the same way when in "evaluation mode" versus settled down to just relaxing and enjoying music.

I once worked for a Linn/Naim dealer back in the 80s and he was constantly putting me into blind tests, which to his frustration I always failed. The pressure of the tests always makes me approach listening in a very different way than if I am listening just for the sake of enjoying music (where the gear has long disappeared from my mind).

And this from a guy who just said that 0s are 0s and 1s are 1s and there can be NO difference...?

I couldn't agree more. My hearing is nowhere near as good as e.g. that of my brother, who does hear cable differences in double-blind testing. I used to work in a recording studio and while I couldn't for the life of me hear the difference in some microphones, I knew that when I use mic A for a certain instrument it will be easier to mix, just "sit" better in the mix... And I was somehow able to choose the right one. While my sensei, the old Japanese sound engineer who was my mentor in the studio, could hear from the control room (where he was asleep half of the time and always with his back to the glass) within seconds if I connected the wrong mic.

Sorry, I did not say that. You are putting words in my mouth, or confusing me with someone else.

That's what I meant.

Which has no relationship whatsoever to what I said about blind tests. You sure are loose and free with how you interpret what people say.

"And this from a guy who just said..." is not interpreting what somebody said, but interpolating personality traits based on their last utterance and being surprised at a seeming inconsistency between what they said on 2 different occasions.

When you make provocative statements like calling a product many people here have praised, recommended to others and spent a fair amount of hard earned cash on "snake oil" don't be surprised at my words. If you provocate, somebody is going to get provoked.

I can't wait to hear how you blind test television sets or even cars.  And blind testing is the only way to be scientific? You're having a giraffe.

Andy

Then you should just ignore me.

At no point what so ever did I suggest or even imply it was the only way. I simply said have a blind test to introduce an element of science.

The simple fact is men (an it is mostly men) want to believe and they want to spend their pennies on something, whether its brightly coloured fishing tackle, 'the best' guitar strings or the sharpest kitchen knives.

I can accept that about myself, can you? If you spend 1800 quid on a 1 metre ethernet cable or what ever it is, do you honestly believe your are being rigorous in you assessment? Or was it shiny and expensive and therefore sounds better?

Its not only possible its likely, and its whats kept the economy turning for ever. Men and their inherent urge to relieve themselves of their money.

If I wanted to ignore what people write, I wouldn't be sitting on a forum

OK, peace, I like reading your posts, I just object to firm statements that what a lot of smart folks with sensitive ears and souls on this forum hear is just in their head, because it's "snake oil". I have too much respect for this forum members, that's all.

Let's go listen to some music I have just reached "ZZ Top" in my brave journey of ripping the entire CD collection and I'm moving to Classical. Starting with my late father's greatest CD: "Italian Music" by Varsovia String Quartet (which he was the founder and 1st violinist of). It can still be sometimes found on the net, highly recommended. String quartets + flute + guitar on some tracks. Good stuff for the soul

Thanks to all for good information. Can anyone tell me the features of Cat5e and Cat6?

Anniversary of Ethernet is comming, what new can we introduce on this anniversary?

Cat5e: bandwidth 100MHz (ethernet speeds up to 1Gbps)

Cat6: bandwidth 250MHz (ethernet speeds up to 10Gbps)

Cat6a: bandwidth 500MHz (ethernet speeds up to 10Gbps)

As an electrical engineer who should know better I might regret what I'm about to write;  but getting back to the question of audible differences between cables (I'm not getting into another cable argument - I just saying what I heard)

At a listening session with a friends Linn DS we tries a number of cables & I do believe I could hear a change between Cat5e & 2 makes of Cat7.  Not sure about the changes between the Cat7's,  maybe a touch of psychosomatic's so I'm not going down that goat trail.  But I'm pretty sure I heard a change between Cat5e & Cat7.  

Anyhow I have just gone thru a newbee to ethernet install & with screened Cat7a (1300MHz bandwidth) on both sides of a switch with metal shrouded ports giving the screen continuity from NAS to NDX. The SQ is as near as I can tell as good as it can be, no signs of packet looses or drop outs (other than the buffering glitch with some iRadio last week)  

Maybe I'm stirring the drop-out demons,  but I am a happy ethernet. 

I just want to use every opportunity to warn others from using CHEAP Cat7 cable. I did (about 1 Euro per meter) and the cable didn't even hold specs to transmit gigabyte ethernet (for which Cat5 should be enough). Professionally tested with Fluke CableIQ, professionally re-terminated to fix the problem, but no go - the cable itself didn't hold the specs. The installers said it's probably because of too thick metal foil enclosing the pairs (it caused the cable to lose shape in storage and it wouldn't "bounce back" to its original, round shape), also the line resistance was rather high making them believe it wasn't even made from decent copper. They said they have seen it before in cheap cables made in the far East...

Now I have high quality, brand name STP Cat6 cable and all problems disappeared.

I think the significant cabling factor is around Signal-to-Noise Ratio (SNR).  For example, I've seen quotes that Category 6 provides about 12 dB (or 16 times) better SNR compared to Category 5 / 5e over a wide frequency.  Common-mode pickup and coupling can translate into ground return currents between equipment, ie noise introduced onto the signal ground plane. 

Anything that lowers the noise floor results in more music... For example 24 bit audio implies 120dB resolution, or 1 microvolt against a 1 Volt reference signal.   It wouldn't take many microvolts of noise to reach the verge of audible impact, which explains why Naim have been so obsessive around electrical noise within the NDS.

Cables, power supplies, grounds, cable routing ... everything helps.