24bit vs. 16 bit

Posted by: Graham Clarke on 26 March 2014

Used my wife as a guinea pig for a blind listening test yesterday.  Played Lorde's Royals track through nDAC/XPS-DR in both FLAC 16 and 24 bit forms, the former ripped by dB PowerAmp from CD.  I told her she'd hear the same track twice but made no indications as to which was "better" and avoided any tell tales during playback.

 

Often in demos the "better" item is played second so this time I swapped the order and played 24 bit followed by 16 bit.  Having already listened to them I preferred the 24 bit as the bass seemed a bit cleaner and better defined.

 

Wifey preferred the 16 bit version, claiming it sounded warmer.  Interesting net result, as sometimes warmer=coloured, musically.

 

Which lead me to wonder, when a recording studio master for 24 bit and for CD do they adjust any of the levels, compression, processing etc between the two or are they processed identically?

 

If they're not processed identically then any attempt to compare 24 bit vs 16 is potentially even more prone to variability and error.

Posted on: 26 March 2014 by dayjay
Originally Posted by Graham Clarke:

Used my wife as a guinea pig for a blind listening test yesterday.  Played Lorde's Royals track through nDAC/XPS-DR in both FLAC 16 and 24 bit forms, the former ripped by dB PowerAmp from CD.  I told her she'd hear the same track twice but made no indications as to which was "better" and avoided any tell tales during playback.

 

Often in demos the "better" item is played second so this time I swapped the order and played 24 bit followed by 16 bit.  Having already listened to them I preferred the 24 bit as the bass seemed a bit cleaner and better defined.

 

Wifey preferred the 16 bit version, claiming it sounded warmer.  Interesting net result, as sometimes warmer=coloured, musically.

 

Which lead me to wonder, when a recording studio master for 24 bit and for CD do they adjust any of the levels, compression, processing etc between the two or are they processed identically?

 

If they're not processed identically then any attempt to compare 24 bit vs 16 is potentially even more prone to variability and error.

That's an interesting question,  on some 24 bit I have it does sound as though the mix is different with different instruments further forward or with stronger base etc. I've always assumed its just the same recording presented at higher quality but is it?

Posted on: 26 March 2014 by mutterback

In my mind, you've hit on the  critical question for hi res downloads.  It's all about the production. And, right now, we have very little information about it. 

 

These downloads can be the actual digital master, which are then compressed for CD. In this case, we can assume the hi res version is the best quality available, possible even the definitive version. Or, it could be an A > D conversion of an analog master tape. Or, it can be an up-samping of the CD data. Higher bit rate does not = sounds better ("higher quality") I'm sure there are more permutations which I'm not  aware of. 

 

I've never seen a download site give this information. People expect production information for high end vinyl re-issues, and even then, that information can be misleading or simply wrong.

 

The only solution seems to be to push back as consumers. My hope for Neil Young's Pono services is that they'll succeed in getting many more people into hi res downloads, and that they can use their user feedback to push the record labels to take hi res as a serious new format and invest in real production work to make them actually sound better as opposed to a "save as" which they certainly are in some cases.

Posted on: 26 March 2014 by KRM

The DR Database website tells you the dynamic range of a lot of stuff. The Lord CD is DR 6 and the HD Tracks version is DR 7, so a slight improvement. The new Beck album is DR 6 for CD and Hi Res, whereas the vinyl is DR 10. 

 

I agree that the differences we hear are likely to be down to factors other than resolution. The greater bit depth gives greater dynamic range, but what's the point when you're listening music that's this compressed?

 

Keith