Lossless? Really?

Posted by: madgerald on 29 April 2014

Not sure if this is the right place to ask this Q but pretty sure someone will be able to help...

 

Following the principle that original is best (I've been brainwashed by vinylheads) and if you mess with something you make it worse then if you are going to listen to digital music then CD must be best format (unless you can get your hands on the original uncompressed file).  

 

A good friend of mine disagrees (yes he is in IT) and says that ripped "lossless" will be as good as the original CD since its all just 1's and 0's anyway.  The only way to settle the argument would be to do a blind test streaming a ripped "lossless" CD against the original played on my CDX2 through the same DAC, amp and speakers to see if we can hear the difference.  Trouble is I don't have a separate DAC and am not about to buy one just to prove him wrong.

 

Has anyone conducted such a test and if so what were the results?  Feel free to point me at a previous post if this has been discussed before. 

 

Thanks if you can prove me righteous  

 

Bill 

Posted on: 15 May 2014 by Solid Air

@ big bill

 

I don't think that's a fair interpretation of what I wrote. I didn't describe any musical taste as cool or uncool. In fact the only 'thing' I described as being cool were people who didn't care about being cool - debatable of course, but hardly the most judgemental point. 

 

Is that I said I don't like certain music that you do like? That's surely the nature of subjectivity, isn't it? You like Supertramp and find Elbow boring, I like Elbow and find Supertramp histrionic. So what? The point is that it's all subjective. 

 

Posted on: 15 May 2014 by Jota
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:

Cool and uncool are pretty much defined by those who place themselves in judgement upon others. It's ok, a natural part of life, and I guess every generation regards the one before as uncool by definition. It's odd, because the people I regard as cool don't give a wotsit for anyone's opinion - and that's what makes them cool!

 

Personally I wouldn't want to listen to The Moody Blues or Supertramp. They're talented in their way, but I find it all a bit histrionic. But there's no doubt that bands I do like were influenced by that era, such as Elbow (new album is wonderful) and before them Talk Talk (in later years). And some folks have taken prog dramatically forward such as Alt-J and, most of all, the sublime Radiohead. They're all an acquired taste, but well worth it.

 

Cool and uncool are pretty much defined by those who place themselves in judgement upon others.

What a pompous statement.  Cool is just a word, nowadays used partly in jest most of the time.  Do you take yourself that seriously?  Do you never judge someone?  Oh yes, you judge people who use the word cool, I forgot.

 

How do you now that the people you think are cool don't give a wotsit?

 

Nice of you to say the the Moodies & Supertramp 'are talented in their own way' - not sure what that means though.  I think that Elbow are talented in their own way but they bore the pants off me.  I bought their album 'The Seldom Seen Kid' because it had the big hit 'One Day Like This' on it and that is a great song.  But the rest of the album is not that good at all.

 

Music is a subjective thing, you may think someone's taste is not good but it is THEIR taste.

 

Dean Martin was the coolest bloke who ever lived and he was in a generation before me.  A natural part of life?  Maybe not.

 

No one, I repeat, no one is as cool as Mr Cool Ice.

 

http://blog.xtremetattoosuppli.../2014/03/coolice.jpg

Posted on: 15 May 2014 by Jota
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:
@big bill

Hmm well, maybe I haven't expressed myself too well. You're kind of making a similar point to the one I was trying to make.

It seems to me that many people don't regard, say, Supertramp as cool. But I think there's something great about liking a band even their not regarded as cool, and not so great about liking the latest media-hyped band just to appear cool. I don't happen to like Supertramp but my point is that it's subjective. I like Elbow and you don't - that's the wonderful nature of music.

I didn't at any point  say anything negative about anyone else's taste and neither would I. My whole point was that it's subjective, and therefore there will be differing opinions about pieces of music. Explaining why I don't like one thing and do like something else is not criticising someone's taste, it's commenting on music.

But who get's to decide who is cool?  It seems like you have taken the job on.

 

Wat as always very cool taste. although it's not up to me.

 

That's not how I read his posts.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Jota:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:
@big bill

Hmm well, maybe I haven't expressed myself too well. You're kind of making a similar point to the one I was trying to make.

It seems to me that many people don't regard, say, Supertramp as cool. But I think there's something great about liking a band even their not regarded as cool, and not so great about liking the latest media-hyped band just to appear cool. I don't happen to like Supertramp but my point is that it's subjective. I like Elbow and you don't - that's the wonderful nature of music.

I didn't at any point  say anything negative about anyone else's taste and neither would I. My whole point was that it's subjective, and therefore there will be differing opinions about pieces of music. Explaining why I don't like one thing and do like something else is not criticising someone's taste, it's commenting on music.

But who get's to decide who is cool?  It seems like you have taken the job on.

 

Wat as always very cool taste. although it's not up to me.

 

That's not how I read his posts.

Jota I guess you are right, I just found the statement in his first post a bit annoying and pompous: Cool and uncool are pretty much defined by those who place themselves in judgement upon others.

 

What the heck was that supposed to mean?  and if that is not being judgmental then I don't know what is.

 

ps tried to listen to a bit of Radiohead the other night.  My CD copy of 'The Bends' was not very good quality but 'OK Computer' was much better.  I liked what I heard on 'OK Computer' more than 'The Bends'.  But it all sounds so self-conscious - I don't know if they are the right words.

 

I don't think they will ever be one of my favourites.  After listening I had to play some Haydn chamber music to soothe me.  Try listening to Haydn's 'Seven Last Words of Christ', it is one of the most beautiful pieces I have ever heard and this from an agnostic and not a huge Haydn fan either.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by tonym:

So, HD Tracks have replied prompty, to let me know I can't order from them, me being in the UK and all, and have refunded my money. Oh well...

I am still able to order & download Tony & no tricky IP blockers needed

Can you log on to your account ??? If so I don't see why you can't do the same

Are you logging on to HDT "UK" ?? - try the US.com www (without "UK" in the URL)  it still shows your account with your preloaded e-mail address, ***** password & remember me.  Thats what I use & it works OK. 

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald
Originally Posted by Jota:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:

Cool and uncool are pretty much defined by those who place themselves in judgement upon others. It's ok, a natural part of life, and I guess every generation regards the one before as uncool by definition. It's odd, because the people I regard as cool don't give a wotsit for anyone's opinion - and that's what makes them cool!

 

Personally I wouldn't want to listen to The Moody Blues or Supertramp. They're talented in their way, but I find it all a bit histrionic. But there's no doubt that bands I do like were influenced by that era, such as Elbow (new album is wonderful) and before them Talk Talk (in later years). And some folks have taken prog dramatically forward such as Alt-J and, most of all, the sublime Radiohead. They're all an acquired taste, but well worth it.

 

Cool and uncool are pretty much defined by those who place themselves in judgement upon others.

What a pompous statement.  Cool is just a word, nowadays used partly in jest most of the time.  Do you take yourself that seriously?  Do you never judge someone?  Oh yes, you judge people who use the word cool, I forgot.

 

How do you now that the people you think are cool don't give a wotsit?

 

Nice of you to say the the Moodies & Supertramp 'are talented in their own way' - not sure what that means though.  I think that Elbow are talented in their own way but they bore the pants off me.  I bought their album 'The Seldom Seen Kid' because it had the big hit 'One Day Like This' on it and that is a great song.  But the rest of the album is not that good at all.

 

Music is a subjective thing, you may think someone's taste is not good but it is THEIR taste.

 

Dean Martin was the coolest bloke who ever lived and he was in a generation before me.  A natural part of life?  Maybe not.

 

No one, I repeat, no one is as cool as Mr Cool Ice.

 

http://blog.xtremetattoosuppli.../2014/03/coolice.jpg

Now that I didn't expect...

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
 

ps tried to listen to a bit of Radiohead the other night.  My CD copy of 'The Bends' was not very good quality but 'OK Computer' was much better.  I liked what I heard on 'OK Computer' more than 'The Bends'.  But it all sounds so self-conscious - I don't know if they are the right words.

 

I don't think they will ever be one of my favourites.  After listening I had to play some Haydn chamber music to soothe me.  Try listening to Haydn's 'Seven Last Words of Christ', it is one of the most beautiful pieces I have ever heard and this from an agnostic and not a huge Haydn fan either.

You may find the later stuff more to your taste - it's calmer and more melodic.  Try "Where I End and you Begin" from Hail to the Thief, "Nude" from In Rainbows  or anything from The King of Limbs, grab yourself a mug of Horlicks and chill out!  

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald

PS for anyone under 40 Horlicks was/is a drink for old people 

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by tonym
Originally Posted by Mike-B:
Originally Posted by tonym:

So, HD Tracks have replied prompty, to let me know I can't order from them, me being in the UK and all, and have refunded my money. Oh well...

I am still able to order & download Tony & no tricky IP blockers needed

Can you log on to your account ??? If so I don't see why you can't do the same

Are you logging on to HDT "UK" ?? - try the US.com www (without "UK" in the URL)  it still shows your account with your preloaded e-mail address, ***** password & remember me.  Thats what I use & it works OK. 

 

 

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

I've just logged on to HD Tracks again. It allows me to place the album I previously ordered in my basket, but I'm reluctant to proceed with buying it, as they've specifically told me in their e-mail that their service isn't available yet in the UK.

 

Think I'll just hold fire for the time being. 

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by andarkian
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:
@big bill

Hmm well, maybe I haven't expressed myself too well. You're kind of making a similar point to the one I was trying to make.

It seems to me that many people don't regard, say, Supertramp as cool. But I think there's something great about liking a band even their not regarded as cool, and not so great about liking the latest media-hyped band just to appear cool. I don't happen to like Supertramp but my point is that it's subjective. I like Elbow and you don't - that's the wonderful nature of music.

I didn't at any point  say anything negative about anyone else's taste and neither would I. My whole point was that it's subjective, and therefore there will be differing opinions about pieces of music. Explaining why I don't like one thing and do like something else is not criticising someone's taste, it's commenting on music.

Supertramp and Elbow are both crap, so that's ok. Everyone knows that fans of the mighty Smiths are the coolest dudes around.

The Smiths headed by mumbling, moronic Morrissey. If anything defines bad taste in music it's giving air time to that self obsessed whining git! How do you like that ?

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by tonym

2 billion posts later - "well, I like (x) but I think (y) is cr*p"

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Bart
Originally Posted by tonym:

2 billion posts later - "well, I like (x) but I think (y) is cr*p"

In a thread about lossless files.  Hopefully there will be more traffic now in the "Music Room" forum.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by madgerald:

sandals

 

Need I say more?

Madgerald that is a great and cool look.  Can I ask you where you got them from?  btw Shorts with turn-ups and a beige cardy would finish that look.

 

They say everything that comes around goes around, or something similar.  Does that mean that look will become fashionable again?  What about the mullet?

 

Me and the missus are off camping for the weekend, so I should see that cool look in the picture quite a bit.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by madgerald:

sandals

 

Need I say more?

Madgerald that is a great and cool look.  Can I ask you where you got them from?  btw Shorts with turn-ups and a beige cardy would finish that look.

 

They say everything that comes around goes around, or something similar.  Does that mean that look will become fashionable again?  What about the mullet?

 

Me and the missus are off camping for the weekend, so I should see that cool look in the picture quite a bit.

But was that look ever cool?

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Big Bill

Valid point madgerald!

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Mike-B
Originally Posted by tonym:
 

Hi Mike,

 

I've just logged on to HD Tracks again. It allows me to place the album I previously ordered in my basket, but I'm reluctant to proceed with buying it, as they've specifically told me in their e-mail that their service isn't available yet in the UK.

 

Think I'll just hold fire for the time being. 

OK maybe a good plan if they have marked your ID'd as an alien

If their promised plan  goes ahead they will be free to sell to UK & I guess all of Europe as well sometime soon.     

 

But as I write its working just fine for me,  no IP blocker, paid with PayPal & its downloading 96/24 WAV 

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Jota
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Jota:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:
@big bill

Hmm well, maybe I haven't expressed myself too well. You're kind of making a similar point to the one I was trying to make.

It seems to me that many people don't regard, say, Supertramp as cool. But I think there's something great about liking a band even their not regarded as cool, and not so great about liking the latest media-hyped band just to appear cool. I don't happen to like Supertramp but my point is that it's subjective. I like Elbow and you don't - that's the wonderful nature of music.

I didn't at any point  say anything negative about anyone else's taste and neither would I. My whole point was that it's subjective, and therefore there will be differing opinions about pieces of music. Explaining why I don't like one thing and do like something else is not criticising someone's taste, it's commenting on music.

But who get's to decide who is cool?  It seems like you have taken the job on.

 

Wat as always very cool taste. although it's not up to me.

 

That's not how I read his posts.

Jota I guess you are right, I just found the statement in his first post a bit annoying and pompous: Cool and uncool are pretty much defined by those who place themselves in judgement upon others.

 

What the heck was that supposed to mean?  and if that is not being judgmental then I don't know what is.

 

ps tried to listen to a bit of Radiohead the other night.  My CD copy of 'The Bends' was not very good quality but 'OK Computer' was much better.  I liked what I heard on 'OK Computer' more than 'The Bends'.  But it all sounds so self-conscious - I don't know if they are the right words.

 

I don't think they will ever be one of my favourites.  After listening I had to play some Haydn chamber music to soothe me.  Try listening to Haydn's 'Seven Last Words of Christ', it is one of the most beautiful pieces I have ever heard and this from an agnostic and not a huge Haydn fan either.

 

I would say that means who is anyone to term something cool or uncool?  Who made that person the arbiter of what should be regarded as acceptable and not acceptable?

 

I think some people forget that they are not the centre of the universe when they make pronouncements about what is and isn't cool.

 

After all, what is cool to a rapper may not be cool to a jazz head and what is cool to a jazz head may not be cool to a metalist. etc.

 

In the end be confident in your own choices and tastes and don't allow others opinions to adversely influence your tastes.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Jota
Originally Posted by andarkian:
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:
Originally Posted by Solid Air:
@big bill

Hmm well, maybe I haven't expressed myself too well. You're kind of making a similar point to the one I was trying to make.

It seems to me that many people don't regard, say, Supertramp as cool. But I think there's something great about liking a band even their not regarded as cool, and not so great about liking the latest media-hyped band just to appear cool. I don't happen to like Supertramp but my point is that it's subjective. I like Elbow and you don't - that's the wonderful nature of music.

I didn't at any point  say anything negative about anyone else's taste and neither would I. My whole point was that it's subjective, and therefore there will be differing opinions about pieces of music. Explaining why I don't like one thing and do like something else is not criticising someone's taste, it's commenting on music.

Supertramp and Elbow are both crap, so that's ok. Everyone knows that fans of the mighty Smiths are the coolest dudes around.

The Smiths headed by mumbling, moronic Morrissey. If anything defines bad taste in music it's giving air time to that self obsessed whining git! How do you like that ?

How very dare you! 

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald
Originally Posted by Jota:
 

In the end be confident in your own choices and tastes and don't allow others opinions to adversely influence your tastes.

And don't wear socks with sandals

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by winkyincanada
Originally Posted by Mike-B:
Originally Posted by tonym:
 

Hi Mike,

 

I've just logged on to HD Tracks again. It allows me to place the album I previously ordered in my basket, but I'm reluctant to proceed with buying it, as they've specifically told me in their e-mail that their service isn't available yet in the UK.

 

Think I'll just hold fire for the time being. 

OK maybe a good plan if they have marked your ID'd as an alien

If their promised plan  goes ahead they will be free to sell to UK & I guess all of Europe as well sometime soon.     

 

But as I write its working just fine for me,  no IP blocker, paid with PayPal & its downloading 96/24 WAV 

I bought something from them with a Canadian IP address, a made-up US street address and a Canadian CC. Worked just fine. I think they don't really take the regional licensing too seriously.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by madgerald:
Originally Posted by Jota:
 

In the end be confident in your own choices and tastes and don't allow others opinions to adversely influence your tastes.

And don't wear socks with sandals

Or listen to Supertramp.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:
Originally Posted by madgerald:
Originally Posted by Jota:
 

In the end be confident in your own choices and tastes and don't allow others opinions to adversely influence your tastes.

And don't wear socks with sandals

Or listen to Supertramp.

Now, now lets keep this civilised! 

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by Bart
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:
Or listen to Supertramp.

You're bloody well right.

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by madgerald
Originally Posted by Bart:
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:
Or listen to Supertramp.

You're bloody well right.

Oh dear....

Posted on: 16 May 2014 by hungryhalibut
Originally Posted by Bart:
Originally Posted by Hungryhalibut:
Or listen to Supertramp.

You're bloody well right.

I quite liked it when I was 15. This is such fun.......