How to discover and learn about classical music

I find it hard to get rid of albums or CD's, just a personal quirk! I still have thousands of vinyl even though I haven't had a turntable for over 15 years! No doubt I will revisit Wagner when the balance of my mind has been restored.

As with myself, most beginners are intimidated by the world of classical music. It is of value to realise that not everything written by these pinnacles of our culture are masterpieces and that because a work doesn't move you emotionally or intellectually that there is something missing in you.

I would speculate that most people coming from a pop/rock background, as I do, are used to, and gain pleasure from music which has a memorable principal "tune". This is a strong element in the works of the Classical and Romantic composers and so makes them a little easier to digest for the beginner. Though, of course, not the only element!

This is where I started - Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert etc. I find in them the the things I value the most - melodies and a sense of humanity. I then moved backwards, so to speak, to Bach. This has been the most rewarding part of my journey to date: melodies perfectly harmonised, intertwined in counterpoint. I do feel, though, with Bach that the greater the knowledge of music theory and composition you have, the more you may get out of it. I've been knocked out by a couple of wildly differing recordings of the violin Partita's by Isabelle Faust and Helene Schmidt. 

I then leapt forward in time to Debussy and Ravel via the Complete Editions which were on offer last year for reasons which escape me now! There are so many outstanding box set offers out there at the moment that you can take a plunge for a relatively small outlay e.g. Angela Hewitt playing a huge chunk of Bach keyboard works as well as the two above.

I find that I am with you on opera, ballet and musical theatre. What I've heard in opera so far doesn't really work for me as a total experience of music and drama. But I do love the music in the later Mozart opera's. I do not enjoy Fidelio in the slightest!

Happy listening!

Vlad

Then he must have been in prison when he heard it! With this, I can sympathise!

Vlad

Vlad,

Which version of Fidelio you did not care for?

I've got a bunch of Overtures but only have the one with Bohm/Staatskapelle Dresden set which is a decent 70's DGG recording. 

Bohm never makes the tune get overcooked. It almost ballet like. This one and only Beethoven opera is an immensely enjoyable and exhilarating work than I thought. ( altho, you don't expect anything less from Beethoven )

For me, how the music is interpreted or presented have a lot to do with my enjoyment of classical music. Sense of humanity you speak of in the music, varies by the conductor/musicians. 

I agree that Opera is a tough nut to crack depending on the theme/story line.

because you had them on cd's while operas are to be watched and only then listened... no wonder you're not an opera fan.

Power to you Morton!  Me and the missus have been going to see performances at the ENO for years now and we both thought that Grimes was the best we had ever seen there.  The orchestra were on the most amazing form for a start, the chorus were sublime and as for the lead singers, well they were truly inspired.

ps did you get to see Satyagraha that was also an amazing event.  We were there on the day after Nelson Mandella died, which considering the subject of this great opera was a bit ironic.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.  It is very difficult to pick up a CD of an opera and enjoy it.  You MUST, I repeat MUST go and see the opera, there is no other way.  Once you have seen it and it forms a picture in your mind then you can play the opera.  IMHO vinyl is best but I am quite pleased with what I have heard with this new 24bit malarky.

ps I also think that Fidelio is a poor opera, considering how great that man's symphonies, piano music etc are.  Have a listen to Op.47, the Kreutzer and you will realise what genius is.

Dear Sharik,

I did not mention my attendances to opera, or that I used regularly to play in opera productions in the orchestra! [Amateur singers and professional orchestra players ...]. Often as not these presented rather good performances though I say it myself.

To be fair I have played in many more operas than I have been in the audience for. I am a great enthusiast for playing in opera. It is very profitable for relatively little rehearsal compared to playing in the orchestra for symphonic music or choral works with orchestra.

For listening, or even in the theatre, I remain enthusiastic about only five operas. Beethoven's Fidelio, and Mozart's Magic Flute, Cosi Fan Tutti, Marriage Of Figaro, and Don Giovanni.

My favourite opera to play was Eugene Onegin by Tchaikovsky! Humperdink's Hansel and Grettel is fun to play as well. Most operas are more profitable than stimulating to play though. I have never played in any of my real favourites mentioned above! I haven though, played in a single Act from Gotterdamerung - the one with the Funeral March in. I was not wishing to do that again. It was a workshop, and therefore I was not payed for the experience! The cast of solo singers was from the English National Opera as was the conductor! And we had a good amateur chorus! Among the other double basses was the former first double bass player of the The Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, who in retirement wanted to play it one more time. We shared a desk. I turned the pages of course! 

I even have played in an opera by Benjamin Britten. That was fascinating, and very difficult, but certainly one realises that he is at least a master composer at the end, even if there was no time to enjoy it as it went along. One lapse of concentration and it could easily have gone wrong!

I am absolutely certain that sitting through even one complete part of the Ring Cycle by Wagner would have me sharing Tchaikovsky's view of being let out at the end! I am all too well acquainted with the music, and the plot.

ATB from George

I have been to a number of professional opera productions over the years, so my experience is not based on CD only.

I am not slating opera, simply that as a total experience of music and drama, it doesn't work for me. The singers often can't act and the actors often can't sing!  The plots are often incapable of standing alone as drama but the music can.

The music however is a different matter - that is often wonderful.

It is entirely possible to listen to opera on CD and enjoy it - they often come with a a booklet giving the synopsis and libretto. And you don't have to watch the singers act!

If we all liked the same thing, it would be very difficult to get tickets!

Vlad

I don't have a version of Fidelio on CD - rather I was recollecting my impression of the vinyl copy I have with Jessye Norman conducted by Haitink (late 80's on Phillips???), in which the music came over as being dull to me.

Dear Vlad,

May I recommend the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, London production [of Beethoven's Fidelio] conducted by Otto Klemperer, live on Testament Records? There is nothing dull about it. Not a single note, but the performance has a totally controlled gradation of tension that utterly compels.

The orchestra is first rate, and the soloists and chorus absolutely amazingly fine. One need not worry about the complete lack of patch editing. The evening recorded was electrifyingly fine and with tremendous conviction. The audience erupt at the end and quite rightly so. For a good forty years this performance was shrouded in mythical greatness. The Testament issue demonstrates that the legend was not false.

ATB from George

Originally posted by Big Bill;

ps did you get to see Satyagraha that was also an amazing event.  We were there on the day after Nelson Mandella died, which considering the subject of this great opera was a bit ironic.

We live about a hundred miles from London, so I’m afraid we do not get down as often as we would like, we do however go to WHO at Birmingham & Longborough Opera, which is quite local.

However I do not think I would enjoy this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laf1ESZCNxk

I am not a fan of Philip Glass, the repetitions would, I think, drive me mad.

Which is possibly why I am so fond of Wagner, the vocal line rarely repeats, even the Prize song from Meistersinger is varied on each occasion it is sung.

As for the common claim of boring bits, you could argue that Mozart’s are littered with them, they are called recitatives.

Just to be clear though,I am a huge fan of Mozart as well; it is possible to like both.

No recits in the German style Magic Flute!

Amazing and unfounded comment!

ATB from George

No, as with Fidelio, there is spoken dialogue, which obviously, from a musical point of view, is fairly boring.

Exactly, and in a live performance this works like theatrical  presentations of spoken word plays.

In operatic studio recordings the dialogue is not unusually left out [or vey much curtailed] as the music carries the story.

It is best not to simplify, even if it is an effort to explain yourself comprehensively.

One of the delights of recitativo is that it adds pace and when well done is utterly compelling in the Drama. Hardly like Wagner's rather irredeemable and dry quarters of hours!

ATB from George

I’m afraid we are going to have to agree to disagree on Wagner. I really don’t know where these dry quarters of hours are.

One of the things that attracted me to his music was the seamless quality; no stop start of music & recitatives.

George,

In the past, I have sometimes been perplexed by your posts. You, and many others, have no doubt been bamboozled (good word at 10 p.m.) by my humble offerings !!

However, here you have hit the proverbial nail on it's noggin re, Wagner IMHO. Of course, others have an absolute right to their own opinion.

Alas, I'm still not able to share your love for Mr. Klemperer - he looks like he sounds to me !!! In my humble opinion, of course

Dear Woy,

The Recording Studio served Klemperer not so well on occasion. That is true, and too frequently, in his later years say from 1965 onwards on occasion], but in the live setting he was so often able to conjure the "true" progress of music with an ineffable aim.

In light of the operatic turn of the thread now, may I refer you to the phenomenal Fidelio at the ROHCG that mentioned a few posts up?

Without a hint of hysteria, or false nervous tension we are treated to an exposition of the true power and drama of the work.

If only any studio recording could catch even a portion of the sweep and also clarity of this staggering musical performance. I know that  theorchestra [of the ROH] found the rehearsals trying as Klemperer was a perfectionists in respect of more aspects than usual, and they found him initially bad tempered and unclear of gesture, but at the end and the actual performances even my friend, who was first double bass player in the performance said to me that .. "we had to see it his way, but he "was" more than right as we realised eventually. We never played like that again over the rest of my career there!"

ATB from George

there's of course more to Wagner then just music, listening to his operas is in fact a cinematographic experience; you watch the music that consists of images and messages and ideas expressed with sound.

also his music is not only for enjoyment, these operas change you as a person, you cannot stay the same after having seen Lohengrin or Parsifal or Tristan or Der Ring or Die Meistersingers.

No harm in agreeing to disagree! 

ATB from George

I have no desire to be changed by such a man as Richard Wagner!

Many unsavoury characters have found solace in his music. I would not want to join them.

ATB from George

you deal not with the man but his music, don't mistake one for another.

Now that is one compelling review! Is that the 1961 BBC recording (he says knowledgeably after having looked it up in the Presto catalogue)?

Yes! Lord Harewood [a director of the ROHCG] wrote to Klemperer after the series of performances and said,

"You have captured the [Royal Opera] House in a way that they could not have seen coming!"

This recording should shake any preconceptions about the "slow" Klemperer that might be gained from listening to his studio recording [of Fidelio] from a few years later!

Get the Testament CDs, as they are amazing!

ATB from George

How strange that I should be enjoying Furtwangler's 1953 Rome radio recording of Die Walkure as I stumble again on this thread. I cannot see how I could ever not love this most wonderful music (and this exceptional interpretation). I think I have quite eclectic tastes in music, but to these ears at least, Wagner's music drama represents the absolute pinnacle of what has been achieved in the history of music to date. Give it some more dedicated repeat listening and see if you too can warm to it!

That might be true if it were only music.

As you yourself claim, opera is meant to be an immersive dramatic and musical experience. In this case with the story, setting, words and location of performance set by the composer.

Wagner places words into his own mouth.