How to discover and learn about classical music

Of course no artistry is indivisible from the personality of the artist, and in Wagner's case his personality shines through every single note of the music he wrote. 

ATB from George

As of course did Furtwangler's ...

Originally Posted by George J:

Many unsavoury characters have found solace in his music. I would not want to join them.

This is a bit harsh, not everyone who likes his music wants to invade Poland!

I said many, but not all! Certainly too many though! Enoch Powell was able to recite Wagner's libretti. Not a good sign I would think!

Even GB Shaw was a Wagner fan, but I forgive this aberration as he was a good man in many ways, as viewed with hindsight ...

ATB from George

Vlad,

Try another reading of Fidelio other than Haitink.

I find his older Beethoven work to be pretty boring!  ( Altho, I just got his newer LSO Beethoven Cycle box set, so will see )

I haven't heard Klemp's Fidelio, but I'd reckon he'd generate much more excitement than Haitink.

Classical music often takes a couple of tries, sometimes different readings, to get it. 

Originally Posted by George J: 

 Enoch Powell was able to recite Wagner's libretti. Not a good sign I would think!

According to his desert island disc choices, he also like Beethoven & Haydn, should we steer clear of these as well?

No, nor even Wagner if you find his music lovely.

It is not hard to conclude that Wagner was a very nasty piece of work indeed. And his music a clear reflection of his basic self-loving nature. Once this is accepted, then by all means enjoy his music if it appeals!

ATB from George

So let me try to summarize the answer to the original question.

Can we all agree that the OP should just listen to Morton Feldman's Piano and String Quartet and decide right then-and-there if classical music is where he really wants to spend his time?

That seems pretty close to the forum consensus.

nope i did not claim opera has to do anything with anyone but the composer himself.

not at all, on the contrary, what he was in everyday life is completely different from what he was as a composer.

but was Beethoven any better?.. also his 9th is directly responsible for all the horrors of the 20th century.

You have said some daft things in the past few weeks but you have excelled yourself there. That has to be the most crass statement I have ever read on this forum. The fact that English is not your first language is no excuse for such jaw-dropping idiocy.

Old Ludwig van B is no more "directly responsible" for "the horrors of the 20th century" than, say, Richard Wagner, Cary Grant or my Nan.

That is an odd staging of that scene but I guess that any staging of that opera will appear odd when you watch a 10 minute clip.  I find Glass' music incredibly exciting and immersive.  Minimalism is not new, chants are minimalist by their very nature and I have always enjoyed them.

We like to see a few operas/ballets/concerts per year but they are now so expensive (esp. opera), we were in the front of the 1st circle (can't remember its actual name) for Grimes and the tickets were £115 each. Couple that with a good nosh up and a bottle of vino and you are looking at close to the cost of a pair of B&W P7s.  For you it would be more after you factor in the train and a hotel.

Morton I think you have to expect that Wagner divides opinion - he always has - but it is difficult to accept some of the things said about him on this thread.  Yes, criticise the man - he was an odious little creep - but to criticise his music in this way is unforgivable.  Unless, of course, your musical talents are at least of his equal and I doubt that anyone on this forum can claim that distinction.

Personally I dislike very little classical music, I enjoy most everything I listen to.  I do dislike some of the modern takes on the genre:  Il Divo, Andre Rieu and that blind Italian geezer.  But that is merely modern marketing and the true fan will ignore it - my word I have become a classical snob!  I also dislike some of the modern atonal music (ear-ache music) but as I said before I love minimalism - Glass, Reich, Adams etc.  Some of the German Lieder goes over my head too, although singers like Janet Baker & Jessye Norman can tend to rescue that sub-genre for me.

I could listen to Debussy all day though.

Cheers Morton

I have a big problem with this. You don't have to be the"equal" of Wagner or anyone else to pass judgement on their work. I have no real musical ability but that doesn't stop me enjoying music. Similarly, it doesn't stop me, or anyone else, criticising what I/they don't like. We all have ears and a soul and that is all anyone needs to listen to or appreciate music.

You like Wagner's music, I don't (and I've sat through two of his bloody operas). If you wish to proseletise for him, then great. It I or anyone else wants to say it's a vacuous and bombastic din, then great too. It's a free country.

I was commenting on the the tone of some of the comments about Wagner.

Why sit through two of his operas if you don't like him.  I once left a Tippet opera at half time!

I was a guest of someone on both occasions. Walking out would have been monumentally impolite. At least I can say I've endured seen a couple. But as someone once said, life's way too short to listen to Wagner, so I doubt if I'd bother again.

btw where did I "proseletise for him"?  I enjoy his music, fair enough, but I never did try to convert you or anyone else to being of the Wagner faith, did I?

It may be a free country but if you wish to criticise my posts then it would be nice if you read them first.

It is very easy to blur the line between personal taste in music (which should be void of politics or a launching point for any agenda) and downright nasty vitriol against another human being (dead or alive).  There is no need for the latter, in my opinion.  Who among us can place themselves high above the rest as if spotless?

One can (and does, clearly) choose to whitewash what we want to identify with and on the other hand can be very polemic towards some other cause either real or imagined.  Frankly, using some of the logic given in the above posts and if we put the same magnifying glass on every composer, artist, author, politician,…, man, woman, and child we would quickly see, if we are honest, that none of us could listen to the music of others, look at their art, read their books or exist, for that matter.

Bottom line is to listen – then decide for yourself.  If you do not connect with something do not discount it though for the rest of your life.  My son does not like mushrooms currently.  He actually formed this opinion before he has even tasted them as his eyeballs (rather than his taste buds) formed this opinion.  I tell him that he should keep an open mind about this and as an adult he will probably see things differently again.  If this transformation happens, what has changed?  The mushrooms have not changed but it would be our attitude and our maturity level and the lenses we wear that effect our perception.  Time and life have a way of changing us if we are growing.

The question here then is “How to discover and learn about classical music.”  In addition and to reiterate what I said earlier I think of my own life and realize that for me it came naturally as child.  No one told me anything and pushed me in any direction.  In fact, it was quite the opposite usually in that it may have been worrisome in wondering why I wasn’t following or have taste like just about everyone else.  Maybe it was my own form of rebellion?

No, I just naturally paid attention to what I liked and what pleased me.  I am still learning this way and continually experience excessive amounts of joy this way.  To learn like a child then is what I suggest.  Leave yourself open to experience new things and have no pre-conceived ideas.  Be curious and most importantly, do not listen to others who bring in dogma or their own platform of unrelated issues.  Separation of music and state is crucial, I feel.

In music, my general philosophy comes from a fairly reliable source, although I have never met him so cannot really vouch for his character off camera and in his personal life.

“Listen, or do not listen; there is no try.”

Well said.

BBM

I see absolutely nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade! And nothing wrong with calling what a spade moves as being what a spade moves!

ATB from George

seems like you did not hear his 9th symphony, did you?

his operas are not to be sat through, but listened to.

I would bet that Kevin is well acquainted with all of Beethoven's symphonies!

And it is going some to lay the catastrophe of 20th. Century European history at the feet of one work by Beethoven, even if you had some point to make. The work is a cry for freedom, and not a cry for mass genocide and destruction!

ATB from George

The Beethoven's 9th seems one of the most inspiring score written for humanitarian unity. At least that theme was the intent of the composer.

And it is the only piece of music which was added to the United Nations World Heritage List.

What am I missing?

Can you elaborate how and why Beethoven's 9th symphony is responsible for all the horrors of 20th century? 

Did Stalin possibly have something to do with it? 

you see, you have just proved my point.

And you have already stated that you prefer certitude to freedom ...

Stalin and Lenin as well as Hitler also had no time for freedom.

ATB from George