Do I 'Need' a Network/Streaming System?

Posted by: J.N. on 24 February 2011

Maybe this should be in the SA section, but it's a general Hi-Fi question.

I've been into Hi-Fi for forty years, and for the first time I'm a bit nonplussed by the evolving state of high-quality music replay in the home. I gotta say I'm having trouble with a whole new vocabulary:-

'Twonky' is a recent curiosity to hit me. A new innovation/term seems to pop up almost daily. 'Apple Airplay' is today's new discovery for me. Then there's the myriad of file types available to rip in. Which one should I use? Do I wait for iTunes to make Hi-Res files available as the norm? A NAS device can't go in my listening room because it's fan-noisy - so I would need wiring from another room where my iMac and router are located.

I have some friends with big houses, and they simply have a good quality Hi-Fi system in their lounge/listening room. Me too. My Geneva iPod Dock does me just fine and dandy in the kitchen.

I can of course see the appeal and convenience of computer-audio. I have an office system sourced from my iMac and a good quality DAC. I love my iPod too, so I am most definitely not anti-new-technology. Several friends with good Hi-Fi systems source them from a MacMini or MacBook feeding a good quality DAC. Everything in one place. Simples.

Network/streaming systems are a great marketing opportunity for us to keep up with the latest technology, but do most of us actually need it? And after you've paid to download everything again in Hi-Res downloads (another great marketing opportunity!), I reckon we will eventually access all our media (music and films) from 'The Cloud' or 'The Big Jukebox in the Sky', so one will not actually need to own any music, but simply pay £20 a month or whatever to have instant access to anything and everything, in any resolution desired via a high-speed internet connection.

This will take some time of course, because being cranky humans, many of us still enjoy having our music in a tangible form. I guess that will change as our young folk grow-up with their music in downloaded form.

I've been well and truly put off by the complexity of the current evolving technology, and am happily sticking with CD and vinyl for my serious listening for the time being.

I think the technology is currently in a transitional computer/Hi-Fi hinterland, and will in time, become a lot simpler. That's why I'm holding off.

This post infers no criticism of Naim whatsoever. As a company, they must evolve or die.

Interesting times, and it's a privilege to live through them.

John.

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Jon Myles

Hi John,

A very interesting post - and a train a thought I believe a lot of people may have empathy with.
Personally, I became a Naim customer not that long ago via a Uniti. I was astounded by the quality from CD, radio - and recently streaming some hi-res downloads from a computer. It beat anything I had heard before.
However, I have my CDs, they sound great, I still buy CDs because I do like to have that physical purchase and I value the fact that it will always be there (unlike downloaded on a hard disk which can disappear with disk failure.)
I'd agree that streaming is in its infancy. No idea what will happen in the future or where it will go.
So, at the moment, I'm buying gear to play what I have. Which is mainly CDs or via iPod through the Uniti.
They sound good. I'm happy. Listening to music.
I'd agree with you....hold off if you're happy. Enjoy the music.
And this from someone who is a gadget freak in every other way!!!!!

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by lhau

Yes, you do!

Well, where I live is tight and small in a city. I can only keep about 20 or so CDs close enough to plug it in the system. About 14 or so tend to be favorites and the remaining tends to be relatively new CDs.

With an iPad, my Mac, iPhone, I can control the whole library, create playlist from any order of any number of CDs/downloads etc. And when i want to play something, i don't need to go into my storage box to hunt and read the disc labels, i can search and it will come up in seconds! This is truly amazing time for us!

Ps CDs still sound better and when I have the mood to serious listening, I would do that. But hey, the new controls and access is really really amazing!

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Jon Myles

Ihau Think you're PS said it all. When you want to listen CD all the way..... Sitting here listening to CDs on Uniti. Controlling from IPhone. Would plug iPod in. But it doesn't sound as good. And I buy Naim for the sound. Apple for the convenience.

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by DavidDever

Start with a NaimUniti–play your CDs.

Add an iPod touch or iPhone for control.

Add a UnitiServe-1TB to rip and store your CDs. Place on network.

Stream your CD titles to Uniti. Compare with CD playback.

You'll be hooked in no time.

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Harry

We approached this kind of back to front, although I doubt we are unique. I kept my cynical hat firmly in place when my dealer and Naim first started talking about bit perfect rips and all that. The proof was in the listening. Helen thought HDX playback versus CDX2 was superior. I needed more convincing but in time I reached the same conclusion, all be it with an XPS2 on both. The process of long term planning was interrupted by the arrival of the nDAC, so all the comparisons had to be done again. My verdict was that musical enjoyment was superior off HDD compared with CD transport. That was all I wanted to know. The many additional advantages of running with streamed music were secondary. And I have to say, grossly underestimated. But I think my priorities were correct. I never did a back to back of anything with a CD555 so who knows? So far as the venerable CDS3 goes (for many years my aspirational goal) it is not beaten but certainly equaled. This required a 555PS on the nDAC which brought the alternative up to a similar cost - ish. Two years ago if you presented me with the choice (assuming similar or equal levels of performance) of HDX-SSD/nDAC/555PS and CDS3/XPS2 or /555PS I would have gone for the CDP in a heartbeat. But my paradigm has changed.

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Frank Abela

I'm with you J.N. So confused, yet intrigued and interested in the potential, particularly the hi-res aspect.

Although, I find it a bit much to have to buy an iPod Touch as a glorified remote control (my old 3rd gen iPod does me well enough for walkabout tunes).

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Tog

A long time ago - when I was much younger than today ...

If you had told me I could play music by touching a screen that listed all the music that I owned - I would have assumed you had been watching Forbidden Planet one time too many...

It is fantastic what we can do with Naim, Apple (and VB

) - and fun ... it may not be perfect yet

but then nothing ever is .... except Mrs Tog that is ... sigh

Tog

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Darlene

I have been happily ripping my CD collection this past week, another few weeks of ripping and I will be done with them. I am planning on backing it up to multiple drives, and possibly getting rid of the CDs, at best, putting them in a box and storing them.. I find them to be a nuisance, and never listen to them, only vinyl and digital. Vinyl when I am more critical about what I want to hear, Digital playlists when less so.

I have an Ipod classic, 6th generation and am using it with a unitiqute. Currently it plays about 20 songs, then stops. Anyone else having similar issues? Anyone using an ipod with the qute and having no issues with that at all, being able to start a playlist and having it play all the way through for hours? I am wondering if it is my ipod, my files, or what..

I am still unsure how the final digital integration will look. I am loving my UnitiQute, it is currently being used as a standalone second system, but has also seen some time as a source in my main system. Now I need digital integration with my main system.....

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by Richard Lord

I'm with you, John. It is very confusing and especially if you stream and have to set up a NAS drive with little or no computer expertise. There are so many competing file formats, etc. That is why I have avoided streaming altogether. I use a Toslink connection from my Apple TV into the UnityQute. I also use the analog input for my TV and DVD player (they are connected together via Scart).

I use iTunes and I am slowly converting my music to Apple Lossless. I have a NAS drive, but purely for backup, which is done from the iMac. So far as I can tell, the ATV does not support direct backup, only synching from the iMac. So the iMac is my disk ripper and principle source for the music store.

To me, this is far simpler than all the other options, clever as they may be.

Posted on: 24 February 2011 by lhau

Jm The difference is just split hair. Sometimes it is the ritual of placing a silver disc inside the beautiful swing door that caused me to do that instead of really about the sound difference. If I have a ndac, probably even less of a difference from what I have heard. I think if you have a dedicated listening area and with every disc layout, then performing this ritual is irreplaceable. For someone living in the city and put most CDs inside storage box, or to the other extreme, those with big house, multiple room/people system, eliminating the need to hunt for a disc inside storage room/across the whole mansion, add the ability to Play and Access the entire collection anywhere anytime ? And this is no old style long running cable degraded sound but cd quality reproduction? That outweigh 99.9% of the difference in sound, except when you want to complete the experience with the spinning a disc ritual. If the hi res music download model got kick off from real hifi digital replay offering from most top manufacturer such as naim? You may not even want to spin the disc. So I would say, if this digital file replay is not your thing now, probably trying to keep abreast with it's development and try it out from time to time is a good idea.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Razor

In my humble opinion, I suspect that most people, including myself, who have expressed an interest in streaming do not specifically need streaming (UPnP, etc.) but simply need a system that allows them to have their music stored on hard disk or similar. Streaming also allows the music store to be remote from the player (for example, NDX) and multiple players around the home which I do not need and cannot afford. So I wonder whether streaming is leading us down a more sophisticated route than most of us need? Better alternatives might be:

Laptop through, for example, Halide Bridge to DAC
Local playback from UnitiServe through S/PDIF to DAC
A DAC such as the Bryston BDA-1 which allows connection of a hard disk through USB - a simpler system than having a UPnP NAS drive while maintaining the benefits of avoiding SP/DIF.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Tog

"halogen bridge" - gas powered and able to light up the living room!

Tog

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Razor

Thanks Tog
Have now edited my post to say 'Halide' instead of 'Halogen' - too much chemistry on my brain!.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Phil Harris

Originally Posted by Darlene:

Hi Darlene,

I've been using a 160Gb iPod Classic which I think is Gen6 and have had no problems so far but I will check again - we've not had anything reported that would be classed as a general issue that would apply to all iPods or iPod Classics as far as I'm aware. It woudl be worth contacting me by email (phil.harris@naimnet.com ) or Steve Hopkins and we can work it forward.

Also be aware that if you rip your CDs and then sell them then you should delete the ripped albums as you no longer own the originals...

Cheers

Phil

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by J.N.

Beware the Hi-Res download folks. I have some experience of newly released Hi-Res downloads of 'Classic Albums' (Steely Dan's 'Gaucho' was one example) being taken from a recent remaster.

I prefer the less compressed sound of the original analogue transfers to early CDs, and have junked a lot of subsequent remasters in my collection, to re-buy original CDs, because they simply sound better.

This of course is not an issue with newly produced music, but a lot of it sounds as though it's optimised for the iPod anyway. There are however a few refreshing examples of great sounding new recordings. I'm a fan of Wishbone Ash, and have only just discovered Martin Turner's re-interpretation of their classic album, re-titled 'Argus Through the Looking Glass'.

It's produced by MT, and his ears appear still to be working. For a change, the drums actually have some dynamic attack, and are not lost in a mush. If you're an 'Ash Head' it's a cracker.

John.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Hook

Nice thread J.N. -- it has provoked some very interesting responses.

Not sure if this is off-topic or not, but....do others, besides me, draw a hard line between hard-disk replay and streaming?

I am totally sold on buying (mostly used) CD's, ripping them, and boxing them away (just in case the RIAA comes after me). I store my FLAC files on a NAS drive, but instead of enabling UPnP, my PC music server simply accesses the NAS as a share folder. Over the last couple of years, this connectivity (MS CIFS shares -- not UPnP streaming) has never let me down. And by using MS Remote Desktop Connection, wireless remote control from my Macbook is fast and easy.

Someday, I would like to demo a Naim streamer. But at least for right now, I do not see how that would result in any advantages in usability or reliability. Am trying to keep an open mind that it could result in better sound quality (feeding the DAC), but TBH, am not convinced of that either.

Hook

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by lhau

Hook, I prefer the streaming method. I want the computer network technology with all it's advance in passing the perfect data to a naim. I don't trust computer to do anything to the file after that, I tend to think being a naim box it can handle the file better than anything else, especially when compared with a noisy pc not designed with hifi audio in mind.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Alamanka

UPnP streaming sound is excellent and the technology is interesting.

In my case, I did not have a traditional hi-fi system before. So I started from scratch a network based system with NaimUniti as client.

The computer centric system never appealed to me. I got the impression that it would be complicated to get a good sound signal out of a computer and it would constitute some sort of compromised solution. Also I did not like the idea of a proprietary music server a la HDX because of their price and their "closed solution" nature (no possibility to upgrade hard drive capacity or sofware)

On the other hand, the UPnP approach where files are stored on specialized storage machines, then streamed through network to a Hi-fi component makes sense to me. The network components take care of file storage, organization, routing and the Hi-Fidelity components take care of the decoding and signal processing.

As far as I understand, this approach will sooner or later get pushed to its radical conclusion, with Hifi music files streamed from the internet. Instead of having our own limited library we will be able to access the totality of all the existing music recordings. Our music collection will become a list of "bookmarks" or "favorites". Right now, my daughter is using Youtube this way, but of course it is not (yet) Hi-fi. When the time comes I imagine we will purchase an additional component or upgrade the firmwares on our existing systems. Essentially this will be an additional source. We already have internet radio, so all that is not so far away.

In the case of the person who started this thread, maybe an internet streamer/tuner would be the logical step forward.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by likesmusic

There's quite a lot to be said for getting a cheap netbook - you could rip and store a decent amount on it, you could use it directly as a player, or you could stream to it across your network and remote control it from an iPhone or another laptop. A cheap way to get up and running.

Posted on: 25 February 2011 by Tog

Originally Posted by likesmusic:

You have just described TogServe Mk3 running VB/MiniDLNA on a Pink Sony Viao (my wife's old machine - rendered obsolete by our ipad) - quiet / low power / discrete - it ran Asset UPnP for a while as well. Works well - can be controlled by the ipad - sweet.

Tog

Posted on: 26 February 2011 by james n

If you had told me I could play music by touching a screen that listed all the music that I owned - I would have assumed you had been watching Forbidden Planet one time too many...

Yep - quite amazing really.

Interesting post John. The postman spends more time handling my CD's these days than i do. My iPod integrates with my car stereo so no CD's are needed there either.

I find a glass of wine in one hand and an iPad for browwsing my music in the other is an ideal way to access my music.

James

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by tonym

Good topic John. As I sit here by my computer I'm streaming music from my music collection stored on a Drobo via iTunes to a DAC. It's absolutely fine for casual listening but when it comes to a proper music session I'm using either CD or vinyl. I much prefer the physical media, like to play whole albums rather than individual tracks, and have yet to hear computer-based audio that sounds as good as CD/vinyl.

I'm very comfortable with computers and stuff but you've only got to browse through this forum to appreciate just how faffy it's become and how rapidly the technology is changing. For my part I'm content to sit back and await a proper, clear, bug-free implementation that's straightforward (in the way iTunes has the potential to be) and can match or exceed the sound quality that I can get so much easier from the physical sources.

Posted on: 27 February 2011 by DavidDever

Originally Posted by tonym:

Honestly–the typical end user probably has a better chance than the "I know a fair bit about computers" crowd which insists on rolling their own solutions that fall apart at the slightest stress test across the network.

Nine times out of ten–the stuff just works–and the other times, there's typically a pretty obvious reason why it doesn't. Does it outperform CD playback in real time? Absolutely–this is good enough a reason for anyone to dip their toes in and give it a try....

I haven't owned a CD player in well over three years, and am more than happy with where the technology is going–not just from a convenience perspective, but a musical one.

Posted on: 28 February 2011 by tonym

Originally Posted by DavidDever:

. Does it outperform CD playback in real time? Absolutely–this is good enough a reason for anyone to dip their toes in and give it a try....

Sorry, in my opinion, absolutely not. And if the latest streaming solutions fail to work one time out of ten, well that's pretty unacceptable.

Don't get me wrong; I'm convinced computer-based audio will overtake the others at some stage, but at the moment all I see is constant change and updating, some of the latter correcting bugs and improving sound quality and usability, but then sometimes introducing additional problems. I'm quite happy to spend a bit of time setting things up, but not the constant messing about. I confess I'm prone to have a fiddle around with my iTunes/MAC/DAC setup but this generally works OK so I'm not going to move away from it on the promise of improved sound quality until things get considerably more user-friendly in that direction.

Posted on: 28 February 2011 by Tog

@tonym - agreed

Streaming via UPnP when it works - is great.

Control point software - still flakey

UPnP Servers - Asset/VB/Naim good - but still being developed.

Mac/Dac - stream or direct - just works - jury is still out on Airplay.

In my experience flac over UPnP to Uniti has the edge in SQ but with a different dac-who knows?

Do I want to mess with UPnP servers any more - when I can rip to itunes - starting to wonder.

Still love Vortexbox -though.

Tired Tog