Some questions on ethernet set-up
Posted by: Mark430 on 02 June 2014
Hello to all,
I am intrigued with the new ethernet cables and the debate they have promoted here. For me this prompts a review of my network set-up, prior getting some cables to demo at home.
Some questions and observations first.
I have HP microserver >> 2M cat 6 shielded >> netgear gs108 >> long 15M length Cat 6 shielded >>> NDS. The Naim gear is all on a separate consumer unit. All the cat 6 is choked at each end (thanks to Simon in Suffolk!)
First comment - so far I have considered the Ethernet performance to be completely satisfactory, on the basis that I cannot discern any meaningful difference between the same files streamed over Ethernet and via a USB stick. This point alone has stopped me from looking at linear PSUs for the switch, or other cable options. Is this a valid position to take, using USB as a "reference" from which to compare network performance?
For those enjoying clear SQ benefits with the new crop of Ethernet cables and indeed linear PSUs (or even a local Mac Mini in the listening room), I don't doubt your findings, but what prompted you to try these options, were you finding that memory stick was better, or was it just curiosity?
With regard to network set-up, I cannot be alone in having a long length of cat 5 or 6, going under floor into the listening room. it is neither simple nor inexpensive to substitute a new cable. Do you think it is worthwhile putting an additional switch (along with its extra SMPS) into the network, near the streamer, just for the ability to add a metre of AQ or Chord cable to feed the streamer? I wonder whether any benefit could be compromised, just because of the introduction of the switch.
The other option I wonder about, is whether to put in something like a mac mini SSD or even a Raspberry Pi into the listening room. That could render the 15M of CAT 6 redundant, other than as an internet connection for iradio.
Anyone in a similar position? I am delighted with the NDS, but if there are ways to optimise, I'm all ears.
>Do you think it is worthwhile putting an additional switch (along with its extra SMPS) into the network, near the streamer, just for the ability to add a metre of AQ or Chord cable to feed the streamer?
No.. but you might want to consider using a RJ45 female back to back connector - this will allow you plug your lead into your other lead.
Simon
I tried the additional switch (as recommended by Linn) when i had one of the Linn Streamers. Not good - hardened and brightened the sound (this was a switch at the end of my 30m run of Cat5e from the server with a 1m patch lead to the DS). I'd follow Simons recommendation above.
>Do you think it is worthwhile putting an additional switch (along with its extra SMPS) into the network, near the streamer, just for the ability to add a metre of AQ or Chord cable to feed the streamer?
No.. but you might want to consider using a RJ45 female back to back connector - this will allow you plug your lead into your other lead.
Simon
I can't see any point in you changing to boutique cables. If you are in any way concerned about noise from Ethernet then follow Simon's advice or use an Ethernet isolator. Rather than worry about Ethernet, i would try Hugo the DAC. You could feed it from your NDS with a good quality optical cable like the Wireworld Supernova - eliminating electrical noise from the network and getting a next generation DAC in to the process.
That said doesn't the NDS employ optical isolation inside its chassis. And you seem to like what have. So I would not lose sleep over not having magical Ethernet cables or defending your system from attack by a herd of rampaging unicorns. The second only slightly more likely to impact you than the first IMHO.
Why not ask Naim if very expensive Ethernet cables, which may are may not meet the category standard they claim to meet, will be beneficial. What cables does Naim use it in its factory for listening tests?
Still what do I know i have only worked in the industry with some of the brightest people around for 30 years: I do the sweeping up at the end of the day.
All the best, Wat
Critic reviewed the NDS and said the best performance came from the USB stick. If you don't find any difference then i'd agree - no benefits to be had. Stop worrying and buy more music 
Can anyone provide any evidence to show that noise on the Ethernet cable bleeds through the DAC and into the Analog domain? If yes, then can anyone show any evidence that exotic Ethernet cables make any difference? Digital is noisy so what do manufacturers like Chord claim their cables can do? They are big on claiming things like greater depth and imaging on a recording that they freely admit is hard-to-come-by but they offer little evidence as such. So yup, that has convinced me to shell out £850 on an Ethernet hook-up cable - no problems.
Answering my own question - Yes I am sure some noise will bleed through but can someone provide some data on this please? And remember that once it gets into your streamer it is still in the digital domain, so your streamer will generate noise. So are we putting the cart before the horse here.
As Wat said why not start by asking NAIM if Ethernet cables made from Helium-Free, Single-Crystal Unobtainum manufactured by a group of Druids in Outer Swansea make any difference. Or, should you just use a good quality standard cable and when I say good quality I mean one that won't break in 3 months time half-way through "Dark Star".
Look I ain't saying there is nothing in this, I ain't clever enough or knowledgeable to say that. But, what I am saying is that for £850 I would want to see (or hear) clear evidence of this cable bringing about clear improvements. I have had the benefit of A-Bing another manufacturer's cable and I simply could not tell when it was in or the standard cable was in. Maybe I have cloth-ears but this was a £200-300 cable here, shouldn't I have been able to hear something akin to the difference between a 16 and 24 bit recording, which I can hear clearly?
Don't disagree with any of that but where is the evidence that shows that noise introduced by an Ethernet hookup cable affects fidelity?
As I said above digital systems are noisy and no one can deny that. So your NAIM streamer is generating noise all by itself, so why should a bit of noise from a cable make it any worse. As you said earlier with the use of ferrites there are things you can do to listen the impact of noise. So why have the likes of NAIM and Linn not bothered with it?
I have done similar things with my mains supply but if I was to brutally honest I don't think I could say 'hand-on-heart' that it made much, if any difference. But being a hifi nut I have to ask where you got your ferrites from?
Look I ain't saying there is nothing in this, I ain't clever enough or knowledgeable to say that. But, what I am saying is that for £850 I would want to see (or hear) clear evidence of this cable bringing about clear improvements. I have had the benefit of A-Bing another manufacturer's cable and I simply could not tell when it was in or the standard cable was in. Maybe I have cloth-ears but this was a £200-300 cable here, shouldn't I have been able to hear something akin to the difference between a 16 and 24 bit recording, which I can hear clearly?
Maybe you're just not a customer for such cables. Don't over-think this. Enjoy what you DO hear, and do not fret over what you don't.
What winds up people is when those who haven't heard the cables feel compelled to tell others, who have, that what they hear cannot possibly be heard.
PS is that the Grateful Dead's Dark Star to which you refer, or CSN's?
Look I ain't saying there is nothing in this, I ain't clever enough or knowledgeable to say that. But, what I am saying is that for £850 I would want to see (or hear) clear evidence of this cable bringing about clear improvements. I have had the benefit of A-Bing another manufacturer's cable and I simply could not tell when it was in or the standard cable was in. Maybe I have cloth-ears but this was a £200-300 cable here, shouldn't I have been able to hear something akin to the difference between a 16 and 24 bit recording, which I can hear clearly?
Maybe you're just not a customer for such cables. Don't over-think this. Enjoy what you DO hear, and do not fret over what you don't.
What winds up people is when those who haven't heard the cables feel compelled to tell others, who have, that what they hear cannot possibly be heard.
PS is that the Grateful Dead's Dark Star to which you refer, or CSN's?
I do enjoy hearing what I hear, over the years my musical tastes have expanded - which is great and my HiFi has improved, which is doubly good.
But I also enjoy a good old yarn about HiFi! After all it was only 30 years ago when we were told that a blue magic marker pen would make our lowly CD player sound like the best Vinyl front-end that money could buy. And as much as such products make your blood boil it is still interesting to join in debates like: Digital v Analog or Valve v Semiconductors etc.
But I have a scientific background and to me making claims on the back of questionable evidence is a sin.
But I can, without any adjustment, relax into my favourite armchair and listen to "Darkstar" (The Dead of course) or some Debussy or some Jazz Messengers or a Mahler Symphony or a Mozart solo piano or an Opera etc, and totally dissociate myself from talks about cables and other stuff like that.
ps just listening CSN's Darkstar, haven't heard it for years - didn't they make some cracking albums?
Don't disagree with any of that but where is the evidence that shows that noise introduced by an Ethernet hookup cable affects fidelity?
As I said above digital systems are noisy and no one can deny that. So your NAIM streamer is generating noise all by itself, so why should a bit of noise from a cable make it any worse. As you said earlier with the use of ferrites there are things you can do to listen the impact of noise. So why have the likes of NAIM and Linn not bothered with it?
I have done similar things with my mains supply but if I was to brutally honest I don't think I could say 'hand-on-heart' that it made much, if any difference. But being a hifi nut I have to ask where you got your ferrites from?
The ferrites were just from the bay, I bought a multipack at very low cost and placed 2 each end of all my network cables. Did it improve things? Hand on heart, at first I thought there was a subtle improvement, but wasn't sufficiently motivated to launch a scientifically rigorous investigation. As a result I left them in place and didn't think about it again. Until all these cable debates started....
But I also enjoy a good old yarn about HiFi! After all it was only 30 years ago when we were told that a blue magic marker pen would make our lowly CD player sound like the best Vinyl front-end that money could buy. And as much as such products make your blood boil it is still interesting to join in debates like: Digital v Analog or Valve v Semiconductors etc.
But I have a scientific background and to me making claims on the back of questionable evidence is a sin.
But I can, without any adjustment, relax into my favourite armchair and listen to "Darkstar" (The Dead of course) or some Debussy or some Jazz Messengers or a Mahler Symphony or a Mozart solo piano or an Opera etc, and totally dissociate myself from talks about cables and other stuff like that.
ps just listening CSN's Darkstar, haven't heard it for years - didn't they make some cracking albums?
I agree -- discussing the variables and "why" something might or might not or should or should not sound different or better or worse can be interesting and entertaining.
I too have a science background, but just as being a student of science is not incompatible with being a student of religion or believing in G_d, I find that I can often (not always) check my science credentials at the door and treat hi fi as something sui generis.
PS I think that my favorite Dark Star (s) are from 1971. The end of April 1971 Fillmore East run (I think it was 4-28-71) has a really great Dark Star. TC on organ added a lot of little twirly whispy licks into the mix.
Don't disagree with any of that but where is the evidence that shows that noise introduced by an Ethernet hookup cable affects fidelity?
As I said above digital systems are noisy and no one can deny that. So your NAIM streamer is generating noise all by itself, so why should a bit of noise from a cable make it any worse. As you said earlier with the use of ferrites there are things you can do to listen the impact of noise. So why have the likes of NAIM and Linn not bothered with it?
I have done similar things with my mains supply but if I was to brutally honest I don't think I could say 'hand-on-heart' that it made much, if any difference. But being a hifi nut I have to ask where you got your ferrites from?
The ferrites were just from the bay, I bought a multipack at very low cost and placed 2 each end of all my network cables. Did it improve things? Hand on heart, at first I thought there was a subtle improvement, but wasn't sufficiently motivated to launch a scientifically rigorous investigation. As a result I left them in place and didn't think about it agIt aiain. Until all these cable debates started....
The number of times I have tried some little tweak and thought yeah that sounds better... But as we both say 'hand-on-heart'.....?
Bart I look at HiFi as two different things. Firstly as I said earlier I love to chat about it and swap ideas and get into the technology. Over the years I have made (a) an FM Tuner, (b) 2 valve power amps, (c) an all valve preamp, (d) 5 Tranny power amps, starting with a Linsley-Hood, (e) a JFet phono amp which sounds gorgeous and a couple of headphone amps. Plus a number of other electronic projects.
Secondly I can turn off from all the techy stuff and just enjoy the music.
I have followed the various threads on esoteric ethernet cables with interest and have drawn no conclusion. I did replace my cat5 with cat7 and was not displeased but can't say that things were markedly changed.
Then, last week I replaced my linksys e900 with an Airport Extreme.
WOW, I didn't make the change for audiophile reasons, I was getting re-buffering when watching HD over wi-fi and the UQ2 is wired to the router. Suddenly I was hearing more tuneful bass airier and slightly harsher treble.
Up to the change in router I had no absolute preference between JRMC from Mac mini -> toslink (Lifatec Silflex Optisilk) -> UQ and pulling the DLNA library from the UQ.
So, firstly there is IMHO a clear preference now for Network as opposed to Toslink.
Then I started playing with the JRMC pushed via DLNA with serves the UQ with PCM (WAV) as opposed to flac and comparing that to the Qute pulling from the same library as flac. Better soundstage, cleaner treble and PRAT using the Qute to pull. Perhaps there is still more musical bass coming from the JRMC.
Next I will convert some flacs back to WAV and see how the two compare when pulling with the Qute.
Q: could ethernet cables be a red-herring, when the bigger issue is what router/switching is being used?
I have followed the various threads on esoteric ethernet cables with interest and have drawn no conclusion. I did replace my cat5 with cat7 and was not displeased but can't say that things were markedly changed.
Then, last week I replaced my linksys e900 with an Airport Extreme.
WOW, I didn't make the change for audiophile reasons, I was getting re-buffering when watching HD over wi-fi and the UQ2 is wired to the router. Suddenly I was hearing more tuneful bass airier and slightly harsher treble.
Up to the change in router I had no absolute preference between JRMC from Mac mini -> toslink (Lifatec Silflex Optisilk) -> UQ and pulling the DLNA library from the UQ.
So, firstly there is IMHO a clear preference now for Network as opposed to Toslink.
Then I started playing with the JRMC pushed via DLNA with serves the UQ with PCM (WAV) as opposed to flac and comparing that to the Qute pulling from the same library as flac. Better soundstage, cleaner treble and PRAT using the Qute to pull. Perhaps there is still more musical bass coming from the JRMC.
Next I will convert some flacs back to WAV and see how the two compare when pulling with the Qute.
Q: could ethernet cables be a red-herring, when the bigger issue is what router/switching is being used?
It could well be a red herring for some specific cases and not for others. In my network scenario, the (presumably) noisy netgear SMPS is on the main house circuit away from the dedicated HiFi consumer unit, and the Ethernet cables are - if I dare admit it - "dressed" - even in the study. I don't doubt those who are hearing the benefits, but in what precise network configuration?
The feeling that I'm getting is that the NDS is probably so optimized that it may see little benefit from exotic ethernet cables (though if you can splurge for an NDS by all means at least employ some 'good' cable where one can) vs something like a UQ that I've found enjoys every little bit you can help it with.
Re noisy SMPS & ferrites …………..
I’ve ferrite’s on both sides of my SMPS’s – on their power strip & on the DC output cables of each. On the DC side I have looped it thru & around each ferrite 3 or 4 times. I’ve also got ferrites on both ends of Ethernet cables NDX-Switch, Switch-NAS & Switch-Router/Hub
Some of the pro level LAN install guidelines recommend some ferrite but I’ve done much more than any recommend. By comparison Linn & Naim don’t recommend anything, especially Naim.
Hand on heart ??? Better SQ, audibly lower noise ?? TBH I don’t know. I'm satisfied I’ve done as much as possible – over kill even – so now I just don’t worry about it.
Am I likely to hear an improvement upgrading the bog standard cat 5e cable that links my powerline to my uniti 2? I'm thinking about cinnamon
Am I likely to hear an improvement upgrading the bog standard cat 5e cable that links my powerline to my uniti 2? I'm thinking about cinnamon
Yeah go and spend £850 on a digital cable and you will hear a difference, whether there is a difference or not.
Get a home dem and if you can't get one then walk away and beware of hype.
I think it will make no difference but not everybody agrees with me but no one can say why it should sound better.
£850??? I'm not mad, Audioquest cinnamon 1.5m £79
Am I likely to hear an improvement upgrading the bog standard cat 5e cable that links my powerline to my uniti 2? I'm thinking about cinnamon
Whether you will hear a difference or not depends on individual circumstances; particularly factors in the local environment and how sensitive your system (and you) are to the effects.
Use of SSTP cables and/or RFI suppressor ferrites can sometimes sound better in some circumstances (e.g. where RFI is being injected into the Ethernet cable by Switch Mode PSUs or in the presence of radiated EMI). This improvement is achieved by reducing RFI. However this particular improvement is only achieved where significant levels of interference are actually present. This is well known. On the other hand, it should also be pointed out that in a domestic situation radiated EMI usually isn't a significant problem. If you want a definitive view on this look to the posts on the subject by Simon-in-Suffolk.
There may be other factors at work, but these are not yet proven, and are still subject to research.
£850??? I'm not mad, Audioquest cinnamon 1.5m £79
It's only a matter of degrees.
Try out the Airport Extreme before spending lots on cable. Try out CAT7 before Cinnamon.
Get a home dem and if you can't get one then walk away and beware of hype.
- I second that.
I think it will make no difference but not everybody agrees with me but no one can say why it should sound better.
- If it sounds better, no need for an explanation.
- If you think, in advance, that it will make no difference, you probably won't hear one (certainly not a small one).
Get a home dem and if you can't get one then walk away and beware of hype.
- I second that.
I think it will make no difference but not everybody agrees with me but no one can say why it should sound better.
- If it sounds better, no need for an explanation.
- If you think, in advance, that it will make no difference, you probably won't hear one (certainly not a small one).
Or you hear no difference because there is none. I have tried (thanks to a friendly dealer) a few fairly exotic and I could not here any difference at all.
So if I could not hear a difference (even if there was a small one) then it would have been a waste of time. Much better to spend the money on music, sit back, enjoy and banish the upgrade bug to the back of your mind.