Where has the NDX into Hugo thread gone?

Posted by: Simon-in-Suffolk on 19 June 2014

Any ideas? 

There were some heated debates, but no more so than other recent exchanges on the forum, and those threads are still there...

i can only think of negative defensive reasons which I don't associate with Naim at all.. I hope it wasn't to do with that..perhaps the thread can go back into padded cell? It was a fairly useful resource for those wanting to use their Naim equipment with a Hugo source..

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Mr Frog

On a slightly different matter but still related to Hugo ........

Naim gear obviously benefits from being left powered on, which is why I keep my ND5XS permanently powered on - even overnight 24/7

 

Hugo uses an SMPS charger/power source and whilst I appreciate that leaving it on will simply put the Hugo batteries into trickle charge, is it recommended to power off Hugo overnight and remove the SMPS from the mains supply to give it a 'rest'.

 

Obviously I don't want to damage my Hugo or it's SMPS and welcome advice from those more enlightened in these matters 

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by tonym:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by tonym:

I won't blunder into areas I don't properly grasp, but the DACs I've been using recently are based on the Twisted Pear design & have all used the Sabre 32-bit ES9018. This has an inbuilt digital volume control but this is a current output DAC & requires an I/V stage which then amplifies the signal by boosting to (in this case) a maximum 2.1V. You can use this volume control via I2C using an ADC to read the position of the potentiometer on the board. If you just use the fixed output you bypass this additional level. Maybe this explains it? (or, not...)

Just looking at the Twisted Pear site - very interesting - I have not blundered on this company in the past and they look to have some really good products.  Which board(s) did you buy?

 

Yes bypassing a cheap pot will generally improve things!

Hi Bill,  if you want to find out more, and you've a few days to spare(!) take a look at the thread in the DIY forum over on pfm entitled "Buffalo II -assembly for the Electronically Bewildered" I originally started. (I'm Suffolk Tony over there by the way). Lots of interesting stuff.

Cheers Tony I will do that.  I thought I was the only DIYer on this forum, maybe we should start a DIY thread where people could do as you did in your last post and point us to interesting articles, useful suppliers etc.

 

btw how did the DAC sound compared to you V1 say?

 

err sorry to be so thick but what is "take a look at the thread in the DIY forum over on pfm" - I mean what is pfm?

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Tom-in-Amsterdam

Treated myself with a Hugo; first impressions are very good. 

 

On the not so positive side: I can't get usb audio out to work with my Nexus 5. Has anyone else been successful with getting the Hugo to work with their phone?

 

I do have an older iphone (4) but don't see a cable in the package that would allow me to stream into the Hugo. Am I overlooking something obvious here?

 

 

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Wat:

PFM is the Pink Fish Media and not an Italian progressive rock band as I used to think in the days of gramophone records and bands that could play their instruments rather than sampling other people and shouting some inane raptrap about how awful everything was. 

Thanks Wat!  Bands that can play their instruments, heavens whatever will they think of next?

 

Tom I can't get my mobile phone to work without the Hugo that alone connected to one.

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Hook
Originally Posted by Tom-in-Amsterdam:

...

 

I do have an older iphone (4) but don't see a cable in the package that would allow me to stream into the Hugo. Am I overlooking something obvious here?

 

 

 

An Apple Camera Connection Kit (CCK).

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by dayjay
Originally Posted by Tom-in-Amsterdam:

Treated myself with a Hugo; first impressions are very good. 

 

On the not so positive side: I can't get usb audio out to work with my Nexus 5. Has anyone else been successful with getting the Hugo to work with their phone?

 

I do have an older iphone (4) but don't see a cable in the package that would allow me to stream into the Hugo. Am I overlooking something obvious here?

 

 

On some the nexus devices the usb is not enabled. There is an app that works with some of them to allow a thumbdrive to work over usb and you could try that perhaps

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by dayjay
Originally Posted by cat345:

Those discussions about the utility of a preamplier with digital sources only are interesting. The reason I think the Hugo could drive a Naim amplifier is because the Hugo have a low output impedance and enough current to drive directly a pair of 90db 8ohm loudspeakers. Second, it's digital volume control do not degrade sound.

 

It seem many people discussing about the capabilities of the Hugo dot not own it otherwise there would already been a few reports about it's effectiveness when used directly with a power amplifier.

 

Do modern Naim amplifiers still need bandwidth limited input signals?

I can't comment on other Naim amps but I can confirm that my Hugo drives my little nap100 stunningly well, makes the bare uq2 sound broken in comparison

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by DaveBk

Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if Naim would reconsider their decision to use an IIR filter on the DAC and ND streamer family following the obvious praise for the Hugo. If I remember correctly the use of an IIR rather than FIR filter was driven by a lower computational load resulting in improved noise performance. Given the large number of taps in the Hugo filter there must be loads of multiply - accumulate instructions being executed, but nobody seems to worry about the impact this has on power supply noise. Is the FPGA in the Hugo just better in this respect to the Sharc DSP used by Naim?

 

It would be interesting to hear an NDS with a similar digital filter to the Hugo. I wonder in there is enough memory on board to implement this as a firmware upgrade with a configuration parameter to allow the user to select their preferred filter characteristics?

 

I've never heard a Hugo so have no basis for this train of thought, but decided to share it anyway.

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by dayjay
Originally Posted by Tom-in-Amsterdam:

Treated myself with a Hugo; first impressions are very good. 

 

On the not so positive side: I can't get usb audio out to work with my Nexus 5. Has anyone else been successful with getting the Hugo to work with their phone?

 

I do have an older iphone (4) but don't see a cable in the package that would allow me to stream into the Hugo. Am I overlooking something obvious here?

 

 

Iphone needs an apple camera kit to connect,  you can pick them up gor less than a tenner

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Aleg
Originally Posted by DaveBk:

Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if Naim would reconsider their decision to use an IIR filter on the DAC and ND streamer family following the obvious praise for the Hugo. If I remember correctly the use of an IIR rather than FIR filter was driven by a lower computational load resulting in improved noise performance. Given the large number of taps in the Hugo filter there must be loads of multiply - accumulate instructions being executed, but nobody seems to worry about the impact this has on power supply noise. Is the FPGA in the Hugo just better in this respect to the Sharc DSP used by Naim?

 

It would be interesting to hear an NDS with a similar digital filter to the Hugo. I wonder in there is enough memory on board to implement this as a firmware upgrade with a configuration parameter to allow the user to select their preferred filter characteristics?

 

I've never heard a Hugo so have no basis for this train of thought, but decided to share it anyway.

Yes, the Xilinx Spartan FPGA of the Hugo has a lot of computational power and uses only minimal power. Only 0.4 W if I remember correctly. 

In the previous Hugo thread there were some remarks about these aspects.

 

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Tom-in-Amsterdam

On some the nexus devices the usb is not enabled. There is an app that works with some of them to allow a thumbdrive to work over usb and you could try that perhaps

Thanks Dayjay,

A quick google let me to audio player pro (6,99 euro) which also has a free trial version. It works when you first connect the Hugo and then start the application. The UI is a bit outdated but it does the job. I'll try this one for a few days.

 

Thanks again.

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by whsturm
Originally Posted by Mr Frog:

On a slightly different matter but still related to Hugo ........

Naim gear obviously benefits from being left powered on, which is why I keep my ND5XS permanently powered on - even overnight 24/7

 

Hugo uses an SMPS charger/power source and whilst I appreciate that leaving it on will simply put the Hugo batteries into trickle charge, is it recommended to power off Hugo overnight and remove the SMPS from the mains supply to give it a 'rest'.

 

Obviously I don't want to damage my Hugo or it's SMPS and welcome advice from those more enlightened in these matters 

I rang Chord before my purchase of the Hugo and they said it was fine to leave it plugged into the mains and 'on' all the time. In use the unit runs directly from the mains as I understand it and the batteries are only trickle charged as necessary. I have noticed no ill-effects over the three weeks I have left it continuously on (this simply matches my Naim kit in any case).

 

As I am using it only as a DAC I held the crossfeed button down when powering it on for 'volume bypass'. Also worth checking that there is no 'cross feed' applied during normal use as this does affect the sound.

 

Really enjoying how it gels with my Naim amplification and Kudos speakers...

 

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by dayjay
Originally Posted by Tom-in-Amsterdam:

On some the nexus devices the usb is not enabled. There is an app that works with some of them to allow a thumbdrive to work over usb and you could try that perhaps

Thanks Dayjay,

A quick google let me to audio player pro (6,99 euro) which also has a free trial version. It works when you first connect the Hugo and then start the application. The UI is a bit outdated but it does the job. I'll try this one for a few days.

 

Thanks again.

You're welcome, Nexus Media importer from the play store also works and I think its a little cheaper

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Mr Frog
Originally Posted by whsturm:
Originally Posted by Mr Frog:

On a slightly different matter but still related to Hugo ........

Naim gear obviously benefits from being left powered on, which is why I keep my ND5XS permanently powered on - even overnight 24/7

 

Hugo uses an SMPS charger/power source and whilst I appreciate that leaving it on will simply put the Hugo batteries into trickle charge, is it recommended to power off Hugo overnight and remove the SMPS from the mains supply to give it a 'rest'.

 

Obviously I don't want to damage my Hugo or it's SMPS and welcome advice from those more enlightened in these matters 

I rang Chord before my purchase of the Hugo and they said it was fine to leave it plugged into the mains and 'on' all the time. In use the unit runs directly from the mains as I understand it and the batteries are only trickle charged as necessary. I have noticed no ill-effects over the three weeks I have left it continuously on (this simply matches my Naim kit in any case).

 

As I am using it only as a DAC I held the crossfeed button down when powering it on for 'volume bypass'. Also worth checking that there is no 'cross feed' applied during normal use as this does affect the sound.

 

Really enjoying how it gels with my Naim amplification and Kudos speakers...

 

Thanks for the info, reassuring to know 

 

Hugo has made a considerable difference in my system and for the price, it's absolutely superb. I tried the Naim DAC on home dem previously but is was unfortunately a very subtle (to my ears) improvement, so I was considering an external PSU. However, with the Hugo being so excellent ... I'm not going to bother. Absolutely awesome in all respects and reminds me of the time I first went to active ATC's and experienced a huge leap in performance - rather like comparing a Rega Plannar 3 to a Linn Sondek LP12

Posted on: 20 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Mr Frog:

Hugo has made a considerable difference in my system and for the price, it's absolutely superb. I tried the Naim DAC on home dem previously but is was unfortunately a very subtle (to my ears) improvement, so I was considering an external PSU. However, with the Hugo being so excellent ... I'm not going to bother. Absolutely awesome in all respects and reminds me of the time I first went to active ATC's and experienced a huge leap in performance - rather like comparing a Rega Plannar 3 to a Linn Sondek LP12

Blimey I hope there are no Rega fans reading that.  I used to work with one back in my Linn days and he was forever crapping on about "pace" - "oh the pace of the Rega" he used to say all the time.  Used to get on my tits.

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk
Originally Posted by Aleg:
Originally Posted by DaveBk:

Pure speculation on my part, but I wonder if Naim would reconsider their decision to use an IIR filter on the DAC and ND streamer family following the obvious praise for the Hugo. If I remember correctly the use of an IIR rather than FIR filter was driven by a lower computational load resulting in improved noise performance. Given the large number of taps in the Hugo filter there must be loads of multiply - accumulate instructions being executed, but nobody seems to worry about the impact this has on power supply noise. Is the FPGA in the Hugo just better in this respect to the Sharc DSP used by Naim?

 

It would be interesting to hear an NDS with a similar digital filter to the Hugo. I wonder in there is enough memory on board to implement this as a firmware upgrade with a configuration parameter to allow the user to select their preferred filter characteristics?

 

I've never heard a Hugo so have no basis for this train of thought, but decided to share it anyway.

Yes, the Xilinx Spartan FPGA of the Hugo has a lot of computational power and uses only minimal power. Only 0.4 W if I remember correctly. 

In the previous Hugo thread there were some remarks about these aspects.

 

Dave, Aleg, to my way of looking at things the sound and effectiveness of the low pass impulse response reconstruction filter is very much down to implementation. If I remember correctly Naim when designing the NDAC compared a recursive and a windowed IR reconstruction filter using their programmable DSP chip and they preferred the sound of the recursive IIR in tests, no doubt electrical RF noise being a consideration here as well. If Naim change the DAC/DSP  architecture they use for the NDX/NDS/NDAC etc.. they may find a different filter approach does indeed sound preferable or not as the case may be.. But it will almost certainly be down to implementation as opposed to anything else.

Simon 

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by tonym
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by tonym:

I won't blunder into areas I don't properly grasp, but the DACs I've been using recently are based on the Twisted Pear design & have all used the Sabre 32-bit ES9018. This has an inbuilt digital volume control but this is a current output DAC & requires an I/V stage which then amplifies the signal by boosting to (in this case) a maximum 2.1V. You can use this volume control via I2C using an ADC to read the position of the potentiometer on the board. If you just use the fixed output you bypass this additional level. Maybe this explains it? (or, not...)

Just looking at the Twisted Pear site - very interesting - I have not blundered on this company in the past and they look to have some really good products.  Which board(s) did you buy?

 

Yes bypassing a cheap pot will generally improve things!

Hi Bill, I've got several Buffalo II boards which I've used in various configurations, the best being dual-mono with a modified Legato single-ended I/V stage, all powered with Paul Hynes regulators. A minor correction - the pot in this application merely selects the appropriate registers within the Sabre chip and it's quality (or lack of) has no effect on sound quality. We're not allowed to discuss DIY stuff on here, for very good reasons, so I won't elaborate any more here.

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by tonym:
Originally Posted by Big Bill:
Originally Posted by tonym:

I won't blunder into areas I don't properly grasp, but the DACs I've been using recently are based on the Twisted Pear design & have all used the Sabre 32-bit ES9018. This has an inbuilt digital volume control but this is a current output DAC & requires an I/V stage which then amplifies the signal by boosting to (in this case) a maximum 2.1V. You can use this volume control via I2C using an ADC to read the position of the potentiometer on the board. If you just use the fixed output you bypass this additional level. Maybe this explains it? (or, not...)

Just looking at the Twisted Pear site - very interesting - I have not blundered on this company in the past and they look to have some really good products.  Which board(s) did you buy?

 

Yes bypassing a cheap pot will generally improve things!

Hi Bill, I've got several Buffalo II boards which I've used in various configurations, the best being dual-mono with a modified Legato single-ended I/V stage, all powered with Paul Hynes regulators. A minor correction - the pot in this application merely selects the appropriate registers within the Sabre chip and it's quality (or lack of) has no effect on sound quality. We're not allowed to discuss DIY stuff on here, for very good reasons, so I won't elaborate any more here.

Are we not?  That sounds a bit Big Brother.  I have built lots of stuff and I have bought lots of stuff.  I don't smoke, don't drink much, never gamble and my wife won't let me spend my money on exotic young women.  So what else do I spend my money on?  HiFi DIY and Off the shelf.

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by Marky Mark
Originally Posted by tonym:

Having built a fair number of DACs, it's pretty clear the output stage has a profound effect on the sound quality of the DAC.

Absolutely correct. Yet the output stage is ignored by those quoting chip specs etc.

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by Huge
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:
Originally Posted by tonym:

Having built a fair number of DACs, it's pretty clear the output stage has a profound effect on the sound quality of the DAC.

Absolutely correct. Yet the output stage is ignored by those quoting chip specs etc.

It's easy for the marketeers to quote figures like >120db signal to noise ratio, or 32bit 192kHz, or very simple statements about the analogue stages (like stating "Class A" - but then that's normal for small signal amps).

 

Chip performance figures can just be lifted from the manufacturer's spec sheets, that's easy for them.  It's much more difficult for them to make any differentiation in the description of the output stages, so they don't try (or maybe they just think the rest of us are incompetent and wouldn't understand).

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by Big Bill
Originally Posted by Marky Mark:
Originally Posted by tonym:

Having built a fair number of DACs, it's pretty clear the output stage has a profound effect on the sound quality of the DAC.

Absolutely correct. Yet the output stage is ignored by those quoting chip specs etc.

Mark manufacturers will quote the figures that suit their kit the best.  It is why manufacturers of Class B or Class AB amps always quote distortion figures at high output levels.  Because if they quoted at low output levels the intermodulation distortion would start to effect their rosy figures.   CD is also a similar picture.

 

As I said earlier: you can create a great DAC but if you pair it up with a rubbish output stage then it will sound......Rubbish.  I bet the designers of all the great DACs over the years have been as finicky with their analog output stages as they were with their digital convertor stages.

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by retepqt
Hugo is visiting our house again. Had a brief visit two months ago and we really didn't get to know each other very well then, but this time it's been more than a week and I've gotten to know this little guy quite well.
 
Since I got the XPS, I've been very happy with my system. Now I've been comparing the Hugo with my beloved NDX/XPS.
 
The initial thoughts I had were these:
  • the soundstage is much bigger or wider with Hugo
  • the bass is more pronounced with Hugo, but I'm not sure if it's much deeper. It may be somewhat more well defined.
  • the NDX/XPS has a little bit more PRaT; as if the bass drum pushes more air towards you
  • female voices with the NDX/XPS are more "shiny" or "polished" as opposed to the Hugo where they are a bit grey or dull
  • the NDX/XPS sounds a little bit more powerful while Hugo may sound a bit more natural (but laid back)
  • on the other hand, the best performance I've ever heard of the LZ Celebration Day was through Hugo!
When it comes to the wide soundstage, I became suspicious and compared the two in mono, and voilà, the difference between them became much smaller! However, both of them seemed to suffer a lot from this, so I won't hold it against any of the DACs. I don't know what effect the mono button (on say a 282) has, but it sure degrades the sound more than just the soundstage.
 
It's been more than a week now and I don't know if I have changed or Hugo, but there's no longer any greyness in Hugo and both of them are equally good when it comes to PRaT. Bass is very detailed and firm. And most of all, Hugo sound so natural (and not laid back)! I mean that both instruments sound real and that there are no (digital?) artefacts affecting the sound.
 
It's a very big subtle difference!
 
(The digital out on the NDX is driving Hugo. From what I've heard, the quality of that signal is hard to beat.)
 
Hugo has been offered a place in our living room and has promised to stay!
 
Peter
Posted on: 21 July 2014 by cat345
Originally Posted by dayjay:
Originally Posted by cat345:

Those discussions about the utility of a preamplier with digital sources only are interesting. The reason I think the Hugo could drive a Naim amplifier is because the Hugo have a low output impedance and enough current to drive directly a pair of 90db 8ohm loudspeakers. Second, it's digital volume control do not degrade sound.

 

It seem many people discussing about the capabilities of the Hugo dot not own it otherwise there would already been a few reports about it's effectiveness when used directly with a power amplifier.

 

Do modern Naim amplifiers still need bandwidth limited input signals?

I can't comment on other Naim amps but I can confirm that my Hugo drives my little nap100 stunningly well, makes the bare uq2 sound broken in comparison

Thank you dayjay. Hope this could be the case for other Naim amps also.

Posted on: 21 July 2014 by Simon-in-Suffolk

Peter, interesting reading and I am glad you, Hugo and your Naim system have all become friends.

it was not clear to me whether your demo Hugo was new or not, but I found from new it bedded in over a few days before it sounded its best... Which perhaps is what you found also. To my ears (and a few others) human voices is an area that seems to really be excelled by the Hugo...male, female and choirs..

I think the NDX/Hugo makes a wonderful combination... Enjoy

Simon

Posted on: 22 July 2014 by Mr Frog
Originally Posted by Simon-in-Suffolk:

Peter, interesting reading and I am glad you, Hugo and your Naim system have all become friends.

it was not clear to me whether your demo Hugo was new or not, but I found from new it bedded in over a few days before it sounded its best... Which perhaps is what you found also. To my ears (and a few others) human voices is an area that seems to really be excelled by the Hugo...male, female and choirs..

I think the NDX/Hugo makes a wonderful combination... Enjoy

Simon

Hi Simon

Just out of interest, do you leave your Hugo powered on 24/7 with it constantly trickle charging the batteries or do you unplug it's SMPS power adaptor and switch it off overnight to give the power supply a 'rest'?