Where has the NDX into Hugo thread gone?

Jan, what happened to your claim that the Hugo could perfectly reproduce the original recording?

The Hugo cannot reproduce the finer detail of the original analogue recording because it does not have it.

If you accept the claims of perfection or even just closer to the original, then you must accept the 'need' for 4 microseconds of detail on which these claims are based.

As no interpolation can ever accurately capture the start / stop of sound waves to 4 microsecond detail based on a 22 microsecond sample, what I feel you really have is a distortion.

You may enjoy that distortion. Perhaps it is the modern day equivalent of pressing the dolby button. I feel it is still a distortion.

I also feel the 4 microsecond claim is not based on sound science.

If memory serves it claimed perfect reproduction of the original. After discussion, everyone agreed this was not possible. Hardly an excellent post.

"However the Hiline RCA to DIN gives that Hugo that Naim like bounce , rich insightful overtones  and textures with subtle dynamics that really attracted me to this device."

I cant comment re. using a HiLine as I use a Chord Anthem2 RCA-DIN from the Hugo to SN2 but I do note the qualities you describe Simon. Most noticeable for me was replacing a QED BNC-BNC (with RCA adapter) to the Naim DC1 BNC-RCA. The latter sounded flat and lacking dynamics.

Interestingly the Anthem 2 '5' pin DiN actually only uses 3 pins for some (explained but not understood) reason.

G

Graeme, L+R, Gnd(Common) ie 3

The Naim link also uses three pins. All five are physically there for no doubt physical stability, but two pins are not electrically used.

Simon

Ah, that is clear. Curious to have 5 'for stability' I'd have thought, but I suppose the HiLine plug design might demand that. (The Anthem2 uses the traditional locking type).

Sounds good to my ears anyway.

G

Graeme,

If I read your post correctly are you saying that the Naim DC1 BNC-RCA sounded flat in comparison to the QED with adapter or does "the latter" refer to the QED as opposed to the Chord Anthem2 RCA-DIN?

Hmm

If one factors in the cost of customised BNC-RCA DC1 (£285) and RCA-DIN Hi-Line (£675) then the total cost of the Hugo would add up to £2,360 which would be more than the (admittedly bare) Naim DAC.

Not "Hugo bashing" and I accept that these "tweaks" may not be absolutely essential to its performance but it is something to bear in mind.

Hmm - but would you not need these components for the Naim DAC anyway if you wanted what these components offered?

But of course the Hiline or DC1 is not essential - its just they do seem to work rather well when you are connecting Naim components with each or third parties.

Simon

Sorry for the confusion - The QED digital (with adapter) sounded flat and undynamic compared to the Naim DC1.

G

Simon

I entirely accept your comments and I did say that they might not be essential. However if one already had a Naim DAC (as you did) and was looking to swap for a Hugo then these extra costs should be borne in mind. Of course they might very well be offset by the resale of the Naim DAC (plus PSU?) and interconnects.

Steve

Then to whom are you referring?

I've never claimed that. And no, it wasn't in the parts of the original thread deleted by Richard.

Nor has Rob Watts claimed that the Hugo will perfectly reconstruct the original waveform. What he has claimed is that it is possible given an infinite number of filter taps, for a bandwidth limited signal.

The following is from slide 8 of his presentation.

We know the ears can differentiate 4uS timing differences
We also know that timing is an important for the brain’s processing of audio
How is the timing of the original transients preserved if CD is sampling at 22uS?
The interpolation filter (an FIR filter that has a line of taps multiplying coefficients to delayed data) recovers the original amplitude and timing information of the recording
This filter re-creates the missing bits between samples
If you look at the original Whittaker-Shannon sampling theory, then for a bandwidth limited signal, if you use an infinite tap length FIR filter then the “missing bits” will be perfectly reconstructed
The FIR filter has a sine(x)/x response – if you use taps that have 16 bit coefficient accuracy, you need about 1,000,000 taps for an 8 times filter!
Practical filters have limited tap length – a few hundred maximum
These conventional filters do not properly reconstruct the original timing of transients

As has been recommended to you many times in the original thread, if you have an issue with the designer's ideas, take it up with him on the HeadFi forum.

I am not a spokesman for Rob Watts.

Jan

A question that has been on my mind too.

As I seem to be the handy target for the attacks, let's review:

When I initially found the Hugo to sound thin on some recordings, Cat345 accuses me of dumping on the Hugo to *advance* my reviewer *status*. Possible explanation: no-one likes to read a negative review (or hints of one) for an expensive product they've just bought. 

Mark seems to think that I claimed that the Hugo will perfectly reproduce the original signal. Um, no. I quoted Rob Watts thoughts on it (which I find truly fascinating). Mark refuses to discuss the issue with the designer and refutes the 4us timing resolution of the human brain. Proceeds to unfurl a truly impressive list of abusive adjectives at me. Possible explanation: ingrained dislike of audio reviewers.

Bill joins in. Possible explanation: see above.

George chimes in, backhanding Daniel Levitin's extensive research on music and the brain, as "hi fi rubbish". Possible explanation: see above.

As for Analog's reactions, I would surmise extreme brand loyalty.

Fundamentally, products like the Hugo tip over apple carts and, in this case, a few sacred cows. I suppose it is only normal that reactions will tend to get extreme.

Jan

My memory from Mr. Watts comments were that if one could have an infinite number of taps in the filter one could theoretically perfectly reproduce the signal.  It didn't need to be said that this will never happen.  

An infinite number of filter coefficients (aka taps around these parts) would only become the ideal if the original sample data was of infinite length!!!! Music I listen to has a start and a finish not to mention my life ... and so is finite. The sample would require an infinite bit length as well.

An infinite number of coefficients in the windowed FIR filter kernel is a mathematical ideal to illustrate a concept - specifically the mathematical convolution that would convert an infinite number of samples to appear and behave as if they are a train of infinite sample impulses where each impulse occurs for an infinitely small amount of time - ie it occurs for zero seconds duration

. 

It doesn't and can't relate to reality. Its a conceptual model.

Simon

...however the Infinite Improbability Drive is a completely different matter!

(/me getsmecoatandshufflessoff )

Phil indeed, there is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened.

Thank you Mr Adams...

... and thank you Simon for bring the thread back on track (Douglas Adams received a Hugo Award in 1979)

...along with The Man Who Had No Idea, Count the Clock That Tells The Time, The Very Slow Time Machine, and of course who could forget, The Lord of the Ring DACS.

f.i.f.y.

I love the design! 

Well the MSB could be the one, but then again there's this one :

That knob could maybe double as a cheese grater.

I have no intention of getting a Hugo, but I do find it astonishing that a teeny weeny box for £1,400 can sound better than £8,000 of Naim, but if it does, and I have no reason to doubt it given the pedigree of those who have bought one, Naim need to buck their ideas up.

I'm sure they are on it.  I for one would love a £2k Hugo beater in a nice matching naim box.

But until then...

Anyway, I'm Murcia bound so will bow out for a couple of weeks.

G

What? Surely you got good odds for that tenner you had on Brasil to lose 7 - 1 last night.

Indeed if Naim brought out a Hugo beater, I'd be tempted and use my Hugo for portable and secondary duties. My mind simply boggles how good it might sound..

Simon