N-stream trouble

I have my SuperUniti and UnitiServe attached to a switch, and the switch is attached to the router. The idea is to isolate the Hifi from other network traffic. If I turn the router off, the system still plays music, which must mean that the signal goes from the server, through the switch and into the streamer, without going via the router. That's how I see it anyway.

HH.. Yes you are right .. the media transfer will be switched between the NAS/UPnPServer and the Unitiserve.

The network traffic is not isolated though.. There will be a lot of traffic that goes to all active ports.. These are broadcast and multicast frames. Look at the switch lights and you will quite often see all the lights flashing together.. This is the broadcast traffic.

Yay, I'm learning!!

Good for you Simon, pleased to hear it.  But I do not consider it to be an extreme exaggeration to use 2 ports on a switch to create a network bridge.  Besides a switch with (n) ports can setup (n) different network segments, it is not limited to two only.

Anyway as I say take it up with Cisco and while you are at it ask them why upnp can't guarantee that FLAC files wont be bit-perfect at my streamer.  What was it: frame dropouts between levels 2 & 3 or was it something to do with UDP?  Can't remember.

Bill good for you. I work with Cisco everyday, so what are you requesting I ask their designers on your behalf????? I must admit you have completely lost me introducing bit perfect FLAC files..I am not sure Cisco would be able to help you on that one... frames are layer 2 and packets layer 3, UDP packets are layer 3 and are not typically confirmed and can be lost.. a user might see that as disappearing iUPnP items due to lost discovery packets / frames If that helps.

Anyway suggest you are better off on a network support forum if you need help with that.

And just to catch up with this, I have 2 queries.

1. WiFi. As far as I am aware, sending streams over WiFi does not affect SQ, but will allow the potential for data drop outs, especially for HiRes files. But SQ is not affected. Is this correct?

2. I have an Apple Time Machine, the ethernet cable from my provider (box on the wall, which I presume is the 'hub'?????), is then attached to the Apple Time Machine (which I guess is the 'switch'). From the Time Machine I have connected the uServe via ethernet.

Is the providers box on the wall defined as the 'hub' or the 'router' and the Time Machine is the 'switch' bearing in mind that on first setup I did not changthe Time Machine to act as a 'Bridge' as some have mentioned on the Forum. Additionally, I have not fixed an IP address in the Time Machine.

Note: everything is working fine a dandy, except I can't play HiRes files and I occasionally get drop outs on IRadio.

                            uSERVE

                                 I

PROVIDER - TIME MACHINE - (WiFi) ND5.

 (hub/router)          (switch)

I know all this is rudimentary to most, but someone has to be the numpty.

Jason.

 1. Wifi shouldn't affect SQ, but ultimately there may be very subtle sonic differences compared to wired due to different components being used and different current demands in the streamer.

Yes if the wifi throughput is limited due to range, wifi signal quality or congestion then dropouts are more likely to occur on higher bandwidth / higher definition streams

2.In this scenario I suspect your modem on the wall is providing a PPP over Ethernet feed to the WAN  port on your Apple Time Machine. On the later Time Machines this is the bottom connector. In which case this is a router port and NOT a switch port - your TimeCapsule is acting as a router and performing address translation..

The remaining ports above this WAN port  are the SWITCH ports and they are on your LAN side of your Time Machine router. 

If you put your TimeMachine in Bridge mode - it ceases to be a router- and is bridging the WAN port to the TimeCapsule LAN switch. Here the modem would be  acting as the router, DHCP server etc and not the TimeMachine.

2b looking at your diagram,  the initial suspect area would be the wifi link.. try hardwiring it temporarily by running a patch lead to one of those SWITCH ports on the Time Machine - does it then work ok?

Simon

I should have said Time Capsule and it's late 2010.

Thanks Simon, think I have got it now as you describe In no 2.

                        u-SERVE

                                I

PROVIDER - TIM CAPSULE - (WiFi) ND5

   (modem)           (router)

So the port after the USB is the WAN and the three next ports are the LAN?

So I guess the question is, would this situation benefit from a switch even in WiFi mode?

I have a problem hardwiring the ND5 to the Time Capsule as it's on a different floor and feeding ethernet to its location would require major surgery, so at the moment I am waiting to collect home renovation projects so all work can be done together.

Jason.

Yes you have it, those right three ports are the LAN switch ports.

I suspect there will be no benefit. The Apple equipment in my experience is designed well for streaming and multimedia in mind - AppleAirplay and iTunes server etc and so I suspect its working optimally as it is. 

You could try getting a PC (Mac or Win) and connect to your wifi near the ND5 and see what sort of data throughput you are getting. If the signal or data rate is poor, an alternate option is to get an Apple AirportExpress and put in in Wifi repeater mode halfway between the TimeCapsule and ND5 - that will boost the wifi signal and most likely give you a greater throughput. I do this and it works well - albeit I don't stream to my Naim wirelessly.

Simon

Thanks Simon.

Jason.

Simon you once said I was wrong when I said that Ethernet to a streamer was bit perfect.  You cited frame dropouts between layers 2&3 implying this would result in data loss at the streamer.  If this is not what you were implying then why mention it.  You even mentioned UDP plus a whole load of other meaningless jargon.  I guess you are now denying this but if not the ask Cisco...

That is all I am saying.

ps Jason when I mention 'dropouts' or similar I am not talking about when your buffer empties and you get a break in the music.  No what I mean is the data the upnp server sends to your streamer is not the same as what arrives at said streamer.  I maintain these are the same, others don't.

Simon & Bill,  we were looking forward to simple easy to understand layman level info - if thats possible, please (?). 

Back peddling to the OP & related posts,  I think we are looking for help to understand why some users run into these kinda troubles, while others seem to get going straight outta the box.  

It seems to me a simple switch between NAS & Player is the key - those trying to use (some) hubs & routers as a switch are most frequently in trouble, maybe more so when trying to stream wirelessly. We've seen the outcome with the sticky on Virgin SuperHub issue,  I've seen my BT HH in meltdown, I know someone who returned his Linn DS only to find it was the router all along.   

I return to an old post where I suggested Naim need to be more proactive with recommended circuit diagrams & components - it seems a shame to spoil the ship for the want of a a few words & drawings. 

Indeed Mike - Linn lead the way here with a few example plug and play solutions which is really what you need to just play music. 

Hi,

It isn't really possible for us to suggest specific network layouts (beyond hard wiring everything) or specific components to use / avoid - routers and their firmware change very rapidly and are completely out of our control so we therefore cannot say that a specific router which works now will always continue to work.

We do suggest to our dealers that they have their own diagnosis networking kit (routers, switches, NASs etc) that they know work and so can therefore be used to assist customers in diagnosing system and setup issues and so your dealers should be able to assist you.

The simple fact is that there *SHOULD* be no issues in having a serve and a streamer plugged into a router - issues occur when the router (or other network device) doesn't correctly implement switching, routing, protocol handling and/or wireless bridging.

The practicalities are that, when an ISP supplies a router with a service package, that router is supplied so that the ISP can hand the customer a "plug and play" solution to getting onto the internet and only has to train their call centre / support guys on one specific product set. No custom installer worth his salt would ever base an install that he is responsible for on an ISP supplied router as they are all generally built down to a price.

When the Virgin SuperHub came out I managed to get access to one (via a friend who is a developer / contractor for VM) for a weekend about two weeks before it started to be supplied and over that weekend we found a couple of sides of A4 of problems with it that we reported back to the SuperHub project manager - their response was simply that it was a product that was designed to get an average customer onto their internet service, that none of the issues that we found would be fixed but they would consider our suggestion of adding a "Cablemodem only" mode so that the customer could use an alternative router should that be required.

Phil

Unfortunately Mike I didn't have any trouble at first.  The only trouble came later when I started to fiddle with things.

Also I do not have a Synology NAS, I have a QNAP and it's interesting to see you also get a whole list of totally useless options as well.

imo I would not use the hub/switch in your router, now I guess there may be some routers out there that would be OK to use.  But what is the point?  Have you seen the price of 4 and 8 port switches these days - peanuts!  Actually it would be nice to know what routers others are using - I will start another thread.

So my router has a connection to the broadband modem and a connection to a switch and everything goes from there.  My NAS is connected to the switch as is the printer etc.

I have to own up and say that the configuration settings you discuss above are not documented at all well and I have no idea what most of them do.  Some of them are obvious though and I changed max volume but I don't think anything else.  I just accepted the defaults.

I can't seem to see how JLD setup his Uniti streamer, you know the spanner button on the remote.  Although generally get something wrong on the Network settings and it won't work at all.

I wish NAIM would just give one setup menu.